Jesus suffering vs eternal suffering of temporary sinners

[The Grand Nudger]

Less immoral than a lava cesspit slide?  Do you really have to ask? 

This notion that..since it allegedly created one super swell choice it just had to create one equally as shitty is more than a little bit absurd. It could have been the choice between heaven and, you know, a sort of humdrum place doing admin work for the heavenly orgy. Some jobs at the theme park are better than others. Could have a heathen contingent of janitors, for example.

[Drich]

Moohahahah, I mean welcome this will be fun.. Remember what I said: Hell is forever Satan will burn in hell forever. the rest will be consumed or it is refered to as our second death. the idea hell his where the soul is sent to be destroyed. shall we see if we can untie what religion has bound so you can see the unfiltered truth???

[quote='Drich' pid='1853555' dateline='1542638653']
Good lord people learn to seperate the bible and the god of the bible and religion. they are not one in the same. for instance where in the bible does it say we will be sent to hell to suffer forever?

Matthew 3
(10) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
(12) Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

again describe hell being forever, not us in hell forever. we are the chaff to be burned up...

Matthew 5
(22) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

again nothing about hell being forever. just a warning not to call your brother a fool in rage!

Matthew 7
(19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

again nothing about hell being forever for the sinner just the sinner will be sent to hell, not arguing that. I am arguing the sinner will burn forever. I am saying the bible never says that it says we will be destroyed by hell fire....

Matthew 13
(38) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];
(39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
(40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
(41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
(42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I have not disputed any of this. there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth without a doubt, coming from lost souls and satan himself as he is not the lord of Hell but being tortured by it as well! But him unlike us will be burned by hell forever.

Matthew 18
(8) Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
(9) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.[quote] again hell is forever.. never disputed that... but again no where in this passage does it say that souls will burn forever.
heel being forever=/= you are forever burning. the bible only says that about one being/satan. He is theonly one slated to burn forever. We have passage after passage of you/souls being burned up by the fire that burns forever.

[quote]
Matthew 25
(40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
(43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I'm sure you have apologetics to explain why the text doesn't mean what it says but the plain reading is clear no matter how badly you want to deny it.

Again and again and again.... The punishment is forever as Hell is forever We are not... If your reading/assumption is correct Why doesn't Jesus say "and you shall go away to be punished forever?" why does he focus on the method of punishment rather than the application? Why is the method of punishment always the focus on each and every example ot how you will be punished or the duration??? The method focuses on the fact that once the decision has been made there is no turning back.

but over and over even with the jews in their use of sheol refers to hell as the grave the second death jesus often refer to us being consumed by hell fire or being 'burned up.' only once in mat is one being and his angels condemned to hell forever. Lest you claim we are satan's army of fallen angels those are the only beings cursed to burnin hell forever... notice how Jesus focuses on the angels being punished in mat 25:41 not only the punishment. why? because they are condemned to hell forever. unlike in verse 46 he simply points to the nature of hell or the punishment being forever, because again 41 it was set up to punish satan and his angels forever.. As this passage indicates only satan and his angels are to burn forever.


Again no where in the bible does it say because hell is forever we will burn forever. on the contary when ever we are mention i the context of the punishment of hell we are often refer to being sent there to be consumed to die, to have our souls destroyed by hell fire.
like

mat 10:And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

wonder why you left that out of your verse dump??? did you not know it was there or could you not simply and honestly reconcile this passage with your religious doctrine? better to be dishonest than look foolish huh??

Here's another point there are like 20 some odd parables recorded in the gospel all having to do with the desirable being taken in and the weeds the chaff the unproducing fruit branches all being thrown into the fire to be burned up... not burned forever. in each parable never once does it say those weeds will burn forever, always consumed by the fire or destroyed by the first..

Then you must also explain "the second death" as in rev chapter 2, 20 an 21

what is the second death?
21 defines:
11 Then I saw a large white throne. I saw the one who was sitting on the throne. Earth and sky ran away from him and disappeared. 12 And I saw those who had died, great and small, standing before the throne. Some books were opened. And another book was opened—the book of life. The people were judged by what they had done, which is written in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. All these people were judged by what they had done. 14 And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Maybe you want to argue the word death meaning eternal life in hell lets see what the word means in the koine'...
STRONGS NT 2288: θάνατος
θάνατος, θανάτου, ὁ (θανεῖν); the Sept. for מָוֶת and מוּת, also for דֶּבֶר pestilence (Winers Grammar, 29 note); (one of the nouns often anarthrous, cf. Winers Grammar, § 19, 1 under the word; (Buttmann, § 124, 8 c.); Grimm, commentary on Sap., p. 59); death;
1. properly, the death of the body, i. e. that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul from the body by which the life on earth is ended..

Hence 2nd death It is like STRONGS NT 2288: θάνατος
θάνατος, θανάτου, 1st death of the body, but since there was a resurrection and subsequent judgement, then second death in Hell is the second time you are to die. If the passage meant torment ever lasting life then it would use the same words described Satan's lot with his angels.. as they would live forever in torment in Hell.

Again you job/tast is to show one place that does not just describe hell as being forever but out internment there being forever as it is describe for satan and his angels. as it is the only way you can purly read the bible and ascribe anyone to an eternity to hell is to identify them as satan or one of his angels. otherwise the best you can do is point to hell being forever. that the smoke and fire never dies that the worm never dies... that's it..

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm not sure that claiming hell is an internment camp for political dissidents makes it any better, personally. In the fairy tale, a significant number of the folks who knew god personally decided, in effect, fuck that asshole..and it's subsequent actions in magic book demonstrate that there was more than a little bit of something to their appraisal of the character.

This, purportedly, from the word of god itself, a one sided report from the front of that imaginary conflict..that seeks to establish a pro-god version of events..and meaningfully fails even at this task.

[Drich]

Magic book never means what it says or says what it means.  It means everything that everyone else says, except for all of the things that someone else means...simultaneously.  That's how we know it's magic.

You have to sift through alot of boxes of cracker jacks to get the decoder ring.  Thankfully, they're on sale at every church.

again it never once points to hell being made for the souls of man to be set ablaze for eternity.. Don't get me wrong.. souls will burn and some for a long long time if God is just.. however in the bible Hell is only eternal because satan and his angels are set to burn for eternity.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yeah, yeah, whatever.  God throws the other guy into the pit.  But since I'm capable of empathy and rational discernment, this explanation isn't any more compelling than the previous explanation.

[unfogged]

Again and again and again.... The punishment is forever as Hell is forever We are not... If your reading/assumption  is correct Why doesn't Jesus say "and you shall go away to be punished forever?" why does he focus on the method of punishment rather than the application? Why is the method of punishment always the focus on each and every example ot how you will be punished or the duration???

Does that much spin make you dizzy? The verses I quoted speak about "everlasting punishment" and "unquenchable fire" and they are referencing the fate of people, not Satan or angels. It explicitly contrasts everlasting punishment with eternal life in heaven. The text is quite clear that Jesus is an immoral thug who revels in the idea of his enemies being tortured and that's been the common reading for Centuries; Dante didn't make his stuff up out of nothing. That many modern Christians choose to find ways to convince themselves that it says something less harsh is to their credit but it is still an attempt to spin vile dogma into something more palatable.

The method focuses on the fact that once the decision has been made there is no turning back.

It's just too bad that you can't get yourself all the way to something that would be actually moral and not just not quite as evil.

The only good thing is that there isn't a shred of evidence that any of this is more than the deranged fantasies of a primitive nd often barbaric society.

---

Don't get me wrong.. souls will burn and some for a long long time if God is just..

You are truly despicable.

[Chad32]

It's still an act of evil, whether it's Satan or us. He's still setting someone on fire for eternity for the crime of disobedience, and leading people away from Yahweh. He thought Yahweh shouldn't be in charge, and the old testament is rife with proof that this god is a sick bastard. He can put on a nice face in the back third, with Jesus, but that's something almost every psychopath can do. It doesn't mean he's actually a god of love, mercy, and kindness. That's just the front.

Does that make Satan a lot better? Maybe not. The only info we have on him is a group that has a history of demonizing everyone they dislike as much as possible. You read the bible to find out what the christian god is like, and most people decide not to worship it.

[Minimalist]

I believe what the atheist argument for this one point is that it is immoral for an all loving creator to create hell. Is that correct?

The same primitive men who invented god also invented hell.  They were the Upper 1% of their day and thus, pricks.

[tackattack]

Less immoral than a lava cesspit slide?  Do you really have to ask? 

This notion that..since it allegedly created one super swell choice it just had to create one equally as shitty is more than a little bit absurd.  It could have been the choice between heaven and, you know, a sort of humdrum place doing admin work for the heavenly orgy.  Some jobs at the theme park are better than others.  Could have a heathen contingent of janitors, for example.

No I didn't really have to ask, but I did. Your example is flawed in that the janitors and secretaries are still in the theme park. Let me try a better analogy.
A space ship with eternal gravity is surrounded by eternal antigravity. You can be inside or outside, no in-between because the door is eternally locked after point X in time.

Whether hell is figurative or literal is moot. Whether suffering is temporary or eternal is moot. Whether it's a furnace or a parking lot is moot. After said X time you will have to live with the consequences of your choice is the point.
The point on the morality of an equally shitty choice isn't absurd. After all things that aren't eternal are gone, You have A or B. If A is perfect and everything good, B should be the opposite. I don't see that as being absurd. I'm not even getting into motives with "not wishing that any should perish". I'm still not convinced the creation of Hell is immoral, but I'm open.

[Drich]

Again and again and again.... The punishment is forever as Hell is forever We are not... If your reading/assumption  is correct Why doesn't Jesus say "and you shall go away to be punished forever?" why does he focus on the method of punishment rather than the application? Why is the method of punishment always the focus on each and every example ot how you will be punished or the duration???  

Does that much spin make you dizzy?

What spin? I simple read only what was on page. I did not add anything I did not take anything away. 

The bible says we will be burnt up or consumed by the fire, it speaks of the second death and it never NEVER ONCE mentions we living souls will be eternally burned by the fire.. IT does in 3 seperate places tells us Lucifer and his demons will indeed be on fire for ever. If we shared this fate then I ask again show me book chapter and verse... not to the nature of hell being forever as we have establish hell is forever the torment is forever but for the sake of satan and his demons. So then show me where souls burn forever. I showed you where the bible says Souls die in hell once in a passage purposly written to describe our time in Hell and again by Christ Himself saying fear the one who can destroy your soul in Hell!!!

If you want to say we will burn in hell forever all I need is book chapter and verse that says that specific thing... If you can not find that specific thing then you need to reexamine the difference between doctrinal belief and biblical facts.

The verses I quoted speak about "everlasting punishment" and "unquenchable fire" and they are referencing the fate of people, not Satan or angels. It explicitly contrasts everlasting punishment with eternal life in heaven.

show me sport. line by blessed line. just like I showed you in mat25 starting @ verse 10 disassembles your exegesis concerning Hell being about the fate of people, and in Christ's own words using his own explaination tells us why the fire is unquenchable and the punishment is ever lasting and that is for those in whom He mentions in verse 10! Because again in verse 10 because Satan and his angels live forever their place of torment must endure forever. (his words sport not mine) We souls will also be inturned there if God finds us wanting, and in Rev 21 we have a complete description as to the nature of our experience in the foreverness of Hell. It will be the destruction of our souls just like Jesus said in mat 10... Again why have you yet to address either of these passages?

Look at yourself and what you are doing to support a doctrine.. you are inventing words that put us on par with satan and his demons and you are ignoring 3 verses in revelation that specifcally describe the process you are trying to undermine and you are ignoring Christ's own words here as reported by Mat 10... all of this to spite those in Hell. Is God's spite not enough for you? is you blood lust so much that deep down you need people to burn forever? because clearly you have conflicting verses here between what the bible says and what you believe. Granted this is a 1500 year old doctrine, but tradition=/= truth. Look at what you have been ignoring and reconcile those passages.

 The text is quite clear that Jesus is an immoral thug who revels in the idea of his enemies being tortured and that's been the common reading for Centuries; Dante didn't make his stuff up out of nothing.

book chapter and verse sport.. dante's version of hell could not be more wrong if a greek follower of hades's wrote it! It was a play designed to appeal to the greek and the christian to assimilate their culture. Over and over in the bible Hell this the torment of satan your moron dante' has satan running hell!!! like some stupid ass greek god!!! Hell is the defeat of satan it is the punishment and the final eternal kick in the teeth of satan. Satan's 'rule' is here now and his rule is subject to the will of God (per the book of Job) this is the closest thing satan has to a kingdom. hell and dante's vision of it was all a fiction invented to fill more seats with old school greek and roman believers. Otherwise show me book chapter and verse. show me the passages where dante used to construct the 7 levels of torment show me purgatory in the bible show me anything besides sweeping dismissal pointing to traditional beliefs!

 That many modern Christians choose to find ways to convince themselves that it says something less harsh is to their credit but it is still an attempt to spin vile dogma into something more palatable.

doga-smogma, without biblical precedent your douche-ma means nothing, to a bible believing christian. there is no more credence given to unverifiable dogma than there is to any muslim rule or regulation. it's empty tradition and meaningless nonsense. can you still find Jesus with this meaningless nonsence? yes you can, but it is also just as easy to loose sight of him when you put all that bs to the test and what you get back is some stock church answer that says the lord works in mysterious ways... or you shall not question God..

See the God of the bible wants you to question all things including him and his 'dogma'/revelation. way way different than your god huh? What if I could promise you that God himself could and would answer any and every question himself directly to you, no middle man??? sound like your religion? sound like something dante would say? sound like any dogma you ever heard? no?!??! again that is the difference between your douch-ma and what the bible actually says. So forgive me If I do not bow down to a broken tradition that has me filter my thoughts and expects me to sit in the dark while god buzzes about the room according to his priests..

If you want to know about hell truly want to know ask God to send you there, and if you can tell me what the one thing that sticks out in your mind as you are consumed by the hell fire..

The method focuses on the fact that once the decision has been made there is no turning back.

It's just too bad that you can't get yourself all the way to something that would be actually moral and not just not quite as evil.

The only good thing is that there isn't a shred of evidence that any of this is more than the deranged fantasies of a primitive nd often barbaric society.

---

Don't get me wrong.. souls will burn and some for a long long time if God is just..

You are truly despicable.[/quote]

So your a moron who thinks all are good???
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/here-...t-occupied
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A6qJhSsuWc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRuSS0iiFyo

yeah, sorry if I do not want you and your brothers and sisters to flourish alongside me in eternity. I don't want those monsters hunting down God loving people forever.. no they need to be burned and destroyed by the fire in proportion to the scale of their own unforgiven sin.