Ex pastor explains how Christianity is fake

[The Grand Nudger]

Your own personal inability to see something in magic book doesn't seem to affect those christians that can and do, nor does it demonstrate that the thing you can't see™..that they do, isn't there.

I think that it's patently ridiculous to distance christianity from such a defining trait as judgement.

[Jehanne]

Hope that is a little clearer.

Yeah, I get it. I'm not allowed to have a different interpretation of scripture because I'm an atheist, even though I was raised a Christian.

It takes an expert in classical Roman and Jewish studies, who is fluent in ancient Greek, Aramaic and Latin to get at the true motives of those who composed the New Testament, the majority of which were written by pseudonymous authors.

[tackattack]

@Jehanne no it doesn't. Do you also just do a plain textual reading of the verses I quoted and come up with, "be judgy to others people"?

@Gae Bolga - I didn't say it doesn't happen, just that it's not taught. I'm painfully aware that it's practiced in people's lives. I've never heard a sermon or class or many differing denominations that told us to judge and condemn other people, and if I did I would probably leave mid sentence. judgement shouldn't be divorced from Christianity as it is an integral part, but it's who's to judge that is important.

If I had met and discussed things with the ex-pastor in question, I'd have sympathized. I would have carefully had him reconsider calling himself a Christian if he's been faking it all his life. If I had met his younger self that had questions but didn't live a fake life, I would have talked about Romans 14:1-13

1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

If you're living a genuine life and true to yourself and others, and don't believe, then you're an unbeliever. If you're living a genuine life and true to yourself and others, and do believe and try to have a relationship with God following Christ then you're a Christian. That seems like the most fitting definition.

[The Grand Nudger]

You're still negotiating with reality Tack.  OFC it's taught.  People don't know how to be judgemental pricks in the specific flavor of their own schisms christianity by pure accident, lol.  I understand that you think it's shitty.  That you think you would leave mid sermon( as though sermons and classes were where peoples christianity comes from?).  I highly doubt that you have a very accurate appraisal of yourself or your faith here, but fuck it, lets run with that.  It's shitty, and you don't like it and you don't see it in magic book.  Other don't think it's shitty, do like it, and do see it in magic book.  

Your novel definition for true christians™ isn't relevant and doesn't interest me in the slightest.  Any person that accepts christ is christian. Your definition is means to exclude christians as christian, that's all it's fit for. You're still putting all of your chips into the scotsmans pile and it's moments like this that I would point to, to explain antitheism. You're a smart guy, and a decent guy, and, probably, one of the good christians, lol. Still, look at what it's done to you. The compulsion has you making assertions that you know aren't true, in the form of an argument that you know is invalid...about a subject that causes a significant amount of human misery and misfortune over which you empathize. You're displaying an internal conflict with the theological commitments of your beliefs.

Theism, whatever else it may be (and even if there are gods, lol) has an effect on human psychology. Part of that is the hyper-judgementality you're losing your shit to wash away...and that, itself, is another part of it's effect.

[tackattack]

It's not taught, and you've yet to cite your source, claim it or pass. You could cite Westboro baptists or Salem witch trials, if you need help finding a source. Children, as I'm sure you know, don't need to be taught disobedience. People don't need to be taught to be judgemental either. Our brains are classifying machines.

I appreciate your compliments and I've found our talks enjoyable and informative and feel similarly in your regard. I will say that the world is full of misery and people are the main cause of that, not religion. I also concede, that any structured belief impacts psychology, and the surrounding social constructs that the individuals are a part of. We can argue the historicity, accuracy and semantics of events and their impact on the human condition but fundamentally I believe it to be a human feature (as opposed to a bug), not an institutionally taught principle in an organization that systemically causes significant human misery on the daily. It's not a scotsman if I'm not making the generalization. The pastor in question by definition claimed himself to be a fake and upon pointing that out, everyone else made the generalization that I would apply that to all Christians (which I would). Just as if you told me you were an atheist, I'd understand by definition that you don't believe any God exists. If you claim to be a fake you're most likely a fake. I was attempting to also delineate that having doubt doesn't mean you're a fake. If you don't appreciate my attempt to more clearly define the elusive "true Christian" I'm very fine with "someone who accepts Christ".

[The Grand Nudger]

I suppose that it's just a massive coincidence how specifically bigoted each christian sect is, then.  Or, for that matter, that the dark night of the soul is routinely acknowledged and affirmed throughout the entirety of magic book and christian tradition.

[Jehanne]

@Jehanne no it doesn't. Do you also just do a plain textual reading of the verses I quoted and come up with, "be judgy to others people"?

I don't think that you are quoting from me.

[tackattack]

@Jehanne It was not a quote of you, I apologize if it seemed that I was. In review you were merely supporting Alan's belief that I was ding anything more than a plain text read of the verses cited. Do you believe the Bible teaches people to be judgemental of others?

@Gae Bolga - It's not coincidental at all, people align themselves in their social groups by a sense of belonging, that others share their beliefs. It would follow that groups of people that share specific bigotries would seek out groups that shared in it. You've yet to cite a commonly accepted dogma that teaches to be judgemental. The Carmelite phrase in question "dark night of the soul" is a perfect example that supports my other point that questioning and doubt and fears are commonplace and part of the journey. What having doubts, fears and questions doesn't mean is pretending to be something you're not or lying to yourself and others. I'm glad we can at least agree on that point.

[Alan V]

Yeah, I get it.  I'm not allowed to have a different interpretation of scripture because I'm an atheist, even though I was raised a Christian.

It takes an expert in classical Roman and Jewish studies, who is fluent in ancient Greek, Aramaic and Latin to get at the true motives of those who composed the New Testament, the majority of which were written by pseudonymous authors.

Sure, but I was talking about what made sense to me when I was younger and still a theist.  Perhaps I should have made that clearer.

Now not much of the Bible is relevant to me about anything, because I agree with Bart Ehrman's assessment that Jesus was a Jewish apocalypticist, and that his sayings only make sense in that context.

[The Grand Nudger]

@Gae Bolga - It's not coincidental at all, people align themselves in their social groups by a sense of belonging, that others share their beliefs. It would follow that groups of people that share specific bigotries would seek out groups that shared in it. You've yet to cite a commonly accepted dogma that teaches to be judgemental. The Carmelite phrase in question "dark night of the soul" is a perfect example that supports my other point that questioning and doubt and fears are commonplace and part of the journey. What having doubts, fears and questions doesn't mean is pretending to be something you're not or lying to yourself and others. I'm glad we can at least agree on that point.

-and when people leave the faith, after experiencing that common dark night of the soul, how do you think they express it?  Could it possibly be "I was trying to fake it till I make it?"

There simply isn't any way to negotiate with reality or me on these articles.  You know damned well what judgementality christianity teaches, or you wouldn't have a conceptual dump to excise it from your private faith.  You know that specific bigotry isn't organic, and you know that your day to day life and experiences as they relate to divinity are precisely the same as my own, and those who leave the faith.

As already described, making assertions that you know aren't true, in the form of an argument that you know is invalid. For what? How difficult would it be, really, to acknowledge that christianity at large has fundamental ideological issues (like any other ideology......), and that there are portions of the faith that conflict with your very modern sensibilities - that you privately grapple with, but that ultimately, with all of that said..you, you personally, and your private christianity, is somehow better.

I could swallow that with ease, lol. The momentum reforming christianity at present is coming from inside the house. It shouldn't be like pulling teeth to have a blunt conversation about the faith, the kind that you can have with other christians in private. You do not personally need to twist your dick into knots to excuse christianity. It won't work anyway....or the whole business would have been washed clean already. The wife is also under the radical non-judgy umbrella. It exists. It's just not the One True Christian Teaching™ even if it's an improved christian teaching. There's another one of those ticks of theism. Every one of you swears up and down on the magical pick your own adventure book that you've got it right and those other fuckers have it wrong. None of you seems to be able to realize, acknowledge, or accept that this just isn't how magic books work, at all.