Pregnant Alabama Woman who was shot charged with Manslaughter of her unborn baby

[tackattack]

grand jury failed to indict on manslaughter for the shooter reasoning self-defense

[arewethereyet]

So, is Alabama a 'stand your ground' state?

nvm - it is. Google to the rescue.

I still think it could become a slippery slope if women are punished for a pregnancy that isn't carried to term. How far does that go? An auto accident where the woman isn't at fault, maybe not even driving. Any sort of accidental injury or illness that causes the pregnancy to terminate? Women aren't just incubators whose sole purpose is carry a pregnancy to term. What about babies born with congenital defects? Just how far can this go? My great grandmother lost nine. Did that make her a serial killer?

Thinking out loud here...playing out some scenarios in my head. They thought I was going to miscarry baby number 2 but I didn't. I hadn't done anything it was just a fragile pregnancy. What if the miscarriage had happened through no fault of my own?

Anyone with ideas on this?

[popeyespappy]

So, is Alabama a 'stand your ground' state?

nvm - it is.  Google to the rescue.

I still think it could become a slippery slope if women are punished for a pregnancy that isn't carried to term.  How far does that go?  An auto accident where the woman isn't at fault, maybe not even driving.  Any sort of accidental injury or illness that causes the pregnancy to terminate?  Women aren't just incubators whose sole purpose is carry a pregnancy to term.  What about babies born with congenital defects?  Just how far can this go?  My great grandmother lost nine.  Did that make her a serial killer?

Thinking out loud here...playing out some scenarios in my head.  They thought I was going to miscarry baby number 2 but I didn't.  I hadn't done anything it was just a fragile pregnancy.  What if the miscarriage had happened through no fault of my own?  

Anyone with ideas on this?

1. Alabama leads the country on charging women with endangering their child by taking drugs while pregnant.
2. The DA, a black woman, probably won't take this to trial, but that hasn't been decided for sure yet.
3. If it does go to trail it will probably run afoul of language in a 2006 Alabama law that allows for 2 murder charges when a pregnant woman is killed. There is a provision in the law that expressly prohibits it's use against a pregnant woman with respect to her unborn child.

[Cecelia]

tackattack
She's not being punished for miscarrying, she's being held responsible for starting shit and the ramifications from that. In alababma fetuses are people, hence manslaughter. Is your problem with the amount of punishment or that she shouldn't be punished at all?

Yes, she is being punished for miscarrying. Doesn't matter if the fetus is a 'person' in Alabama or not. You can bet your ass that if little Johnny got a hold of daddy's 9mm and shot his sister with it and killed her, Johnny's dad would NOT be charged with Manslaughter. So spare me your sanctimonious bullshit. And I can bet you'd never support a parent being charged if they refused to get their child treated for religious reasons.

[tackattack]

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So, is Alabama a 'stand your ground' state?

nvm - it is. Google to the rescue.

I still think it could become a slippery slope if women are punished for a pregnancy that isn't carried to term. How far does that go? An auto accident where the woman isn't at fault, maybe not even driving. Any sort of accidental injury or illness that causes the pregnancy to terminate? Women aren't just incubators whose sole purpose is carry a pregnancy to term. What about babies born with congenital defects? Just how far can this go? My great grandmother lost nine. Did that make her a serial killer?

Thinking out loud here...playing out some scenarios in my head. They thought I was going to miscarry baby number 2 but I didn't. I hadn't done anything it was just a fragile pregnancy. What if the miscarriage had happened through no fault of my own?

Anyone with ideas on this?

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I think it is definitely a slippery slope. For now we heap all of the blame onto one person in the legal system. Rarely, in life, is it that cut and dry. Take the fetus out of the equation. If it was a random kid in the car she was backed up against who would have the most blame. I still think it would be the instigator. Couple that with the recklessness of the parent of that child to start a fight, and press the fight with a gun owner (presumably she new her at least as a co-worker). Something that happens to you that you have zero control over doesn't (shouldn't) put any blame on you. I think it's the should that place blame. If you could forsee it and you could prevent it, you should have attempted to stop it. We can see a car coming last minute but might not be able to steer clear of it. You can forsee that taking meth is bad for a baby and you don't have to take meth, so you should be punished for it. You can forsee an unsecured gun is a hazard around curious children, you don't have to leave it unsecured, therefore you should be able to prevent most accidental shootings from guns being left out. idk, but that's just my 2 cents, it's way to early before coffee for this.

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tackattack
She's not being punished for miscarrying, she's being held responsible for starting shit and the ramifications from that. In alababma fetuses are people, hence manslaughter. Is your problem with the amount of punishment or that she shouldn't be punished at all?

Yes, she is being punished for miscarrying. Doesn't matter if the fetus is a 'person' in Alabama or not. You can bet your ass that if little Johnny got a hold of daddy's 9mm and shot his sister with it and killed her, Johnny's dad would NOT be charged with Manslaughter. So spare me your sanctimonious bullshit. And I can bet you'd never support a parent being charged if they refused to get their child treated for religious reasons.

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I disagree, and disagree with it being sanctimonious, but that's another topic. It does matter if the fetus is granted personhood legally. You may not agree with it, but in Alabama it is. Can you honestly say that the victim or an accidental death in a drive-by shouldn't have the shooter punished? In Alabama the fetus and the kid sitting in it's house are the same thing. If miscarriage is "the expulsion of a fetus from the womb before it is able to survive independently, especially spontaneously or as the result of accident" I think I see where you repeatedly using that work is just expressing your bias. It wasn't accidental that she engaged the gun owner in her pregnant state. It was intentional, aggressive and she pressed the issue when she was winning. Just because she was blind to the outcome of being shot doesn't mean a reasonable person looking in can easily see if someone attacks you and is beating you to a pulp against a car and you have a weapon, you'll defend yourself. Isn't that reasonable?

I do believe that the law should punish irresponsibility. Johnny getting a hold of daddy's 9mm and shooting his sister with it and killed her, Johnny's dad SHOULD be charged with Manslaughter. I also would support a parent being charged if they refused to get their child treated for religious reasons. I also believe in punishing parents (all, but for your sake I'll specify to include religious) for torturing the gay out of their kids, or spreading diseases through neglect, ignorance or sheer stupidity, or molesting children ,etc. ad nauseum.

[Cecelia]

I'm pretty sure it's not reasonable to shoot someone in self defense, when the other person is unarmed and pregnant. But maybe that's just me. This is all about punishing a woman for miscarrying. Next we'll hear about women being charged with manslaughter for falling down the stairs while pregnant. "Shouldn't have been taking the stairs when she was pregnant." "She should have known that was a risk!" This is your EXACT logic. It's painting women as being nothing more than incubators. We're not your goddamn incubators. We're people. With rights the same as everyone else. That doesn't change just because we're pregnant.

Maybe YOU wouldn't want to see them punished for falling down the stairs. But that's what this is going to lead to.

[tackattack]

In AL stand your ground laws it is perfectly reasonable to use deadly force when " they believe the other person is engaged in kidnapping, assault, robbery, or rape.". I believe being beaten against a car falls under that definition. There is no escalation of force matrix for civilians in a stand your ground state, just that they're not the instigator. This is not even close to accidentally falling down stairs. You misread my logic and took the extreme, and are arguing ad absurdum to demonstrate your slippery slope instead of addressing my examples in good faith. I agree that women aren't just incubators and they have rights the same as everyone else. That "everyone else", in Alabama, includes the fetus they are carrying though.

That's why I used the example of instead of a fetus, it was a child bystander. So I'll ask it plainly again Can you honestly say that the victim of an accidental death in a drive-by shouldn't have the shooter punished?

[Aoi Magi]

That's why I used the example of instead of a fetus, it was a child bystander. So I'll ask it plainly again Can you honestly say that the victim of an accidental death in a drive-by shouldn't have the shooter punished?

So if we had an argument and you tried to hit me, and I shoot your child, I should go scot-free, and you should be charged with manslaughter?

[LastPoet]

Its weird like that magi... It is twisted the love of guns. Sure if the woman was shooting a gun, I would find perfectly reasonable to use a gun to bring her down, but she was unarmed and pregnant. I don't think of pregnant women as masters of krav maga, so it is easy to dodge any blow, while making a call to the cops.

Excessive use of force is the legal lango here. Even cops have to abide by that.

[Cecelia]

That's why I used the example of instead of a fetus, it was a child bystander. So I'll ask it plainly again Can you honestly say that the victim of an accidental death in a drive-by shouldn't have the shooter punished?

According to you, if it was in 'self defense', then the answer is 'no' apparently.

If someone shoots someone, the person doing the shooting should be the one charged.  This woman didn't take her gun out, shoot at someone then accidentally hit herself in the stomach.

But you'll pivot back to 'self defense' laws, ignoring that by these same laws a father who leaves his gun out and his son gets a hold of it and kills his daughter with it, doesn't get charged.  After which you'll pivot back to what YOUR opinion on the matter is, rather than what the law is.