Discrimination, oppression, and the War on Christianity

[arewethereyet]

---

Yea, are you kidding me? Lol. No, I wouldn’t force my son to join a sports team just so I could “single” out the entire team for being Christian. We actually really had this issue with his team and I just privately made the request to the coaches that they keep their prayers to themselves and don’t make it a group thing. They were very nice about it after I gently suggested that I would go to the directors of the organization if needed. I would never force my son to join anything he doesn’t want to join lol. My son wants to play football, football is not a religious activity, there is zero reason why he shouldn’t be allowed to join a team just because most of the other players are Christians. There’s also no reason why he shouldn’t be free from an adult asking him to join a prayer during football, that’s extremely inappropriate for an adult to discuss any religious matters with a child that he doesn’t know well enough to know their religious views and/or without permission from their parents.

Saying a prayer publicly is not wrong. I never said it was. (I personally have issues with praying over sporting events but that’s aside from the point) If you want to say it out loud at the grocery store that’s fine by me, some people might ask you not to and that would be up to the company how they deal with that. What is 100% wrong is to ask for a group prayer when you’re an adult and they’re children and when you’re a coach and they’re players and when you’re in a position of authority. In that case, it is wrong for you to even say your prayer out loud where everyone who wants to play football is forced to listen. You don’t have any rights to free speech within a sports organization anyway. Free speech is a person or community’s freedom to voice their opinions without government retaliation, censorship, or legal penalties. Freedom of speech does not mean you can say anything you want anywhere you want to anyone you want without consequences. The organization is well within their rights to not allow group prayer during sports events. Also, even if free speech did apply here, the Supreme Court has already ruled in favor of the rights of a captive audience outweighing the rights of an individual or group’s freedom of speech.

---

Sounds like you handled it well, even with the unnecessary threat attached.
I understand that now (since 2007 I believe)it is not legal by the First Amendment. It does not guarantee the right to direct messages at people who will find them deeply hurtful, and who have no effective means of simply tuning them out. That coupled with the privilege of being in the majority and the historical organizational acceptance of the practice of prayer at this sporting event, and coupled with the fact no intention of being hurtful wasn't present, I didn't see it as wrong. Perhaps I find it most problematic that prayer in this legal context is something people would find hurtful or forced. I've never been part of a prayer that was hurtful or forced, public or private. If you've ever coached kids, you know they can tune out about anything in the 6 seconds that is a huddle and often do. Maybe a reprimand, to be PC, but not removed from coaching entirely to save face.

I believe in corporate prayer. I also believe in private prayer. Both have their uses. Neither should be for show, which wasn't the intent of the huddle prayer. Nowadays, I coach upwards sports when I coach. I don't think they'd have a problem with me choosing not to pray, as I wouldn't have a problem with someone choosing to pray or not to pray. The only difference is the expectation of God to be in the conversation and methods.

That's my overall point. While legally nowadays it's not acceptable legally to make someone uncomfortable in a captive situation like teaching. But where do you draw the line with someone's personal expression and their job duties? Do we fire teachers for wearing a cross necklace or carrying a Bible? My second point, being that of the main difference is the expectation of God in the methods, couldn't a parent reasonably forsee that there would be a prayer prior to the game, before their child joined?

I wasn't limiting or forcing his speech by direction. You might claim coercion through established normative behavior at best, which I admit. He probably felt out of place, from my doing. I catch the general gist that in today's modern PC times it is illegal to have a corporate prayer as a coach. What if I had asked the kids, "Does anyone here want to lead us in quick prayer?" Would that have been acceptable?

You already know the answers to your last questions.  Pretending that you don't is rather insulting.

Even with public school prayer the rule has been that if it's initiated by students and is done by students who freely join in it's okay.  

You are leading them when you ask if anyone wants to lead a prayer...again, putting kids in a situation where they think they should do as the adult in the group wants.  

If kids want to pray they will, even if it's silently.  

Teach the kids how to play ball.

As for the teacher wearing a cross...get over yourself.  You know that there are plenty of teachers/coaches/childcare providers who are wearing some sort of religious symbol whether it be a necklace, a ring, a bracelet, or a Bible forbidden tattoo.

[tackattack]

I get that you want it to be just about playing ball. But nothing I can think of is that black and white. People's beliefs, stigmas, opinions, and privilege play into almost everything we do. Unless you want coaches to all be robots, I don't see a solution that's cut and dry. I get that it should be done freely. Where does that freedom start? With the parent who signs up their child, the coach who huddles the team, the boy who wants to say a prayer? I don't agree that it should only be done by students. The line between personal expression of a belief and how it impacts others is still murky for me. I still feel intent plays the strongest role in making those lines. Do you disagree?

[arewethereyet]

If you are in a church/religion based setting then the rules are different. But everyone knows the rules. It's a religion based thing. Prayer is sort of expected.

If it's a public rec league or part of a public school then you don't get to assume that urging your belief system onto others is okay.

It is pretty black and white.

Again, know your audience.

[Cecelia]

I get that you want it to be just about playing ball. But nothing I can think of is that black and white. People's beliefs, stigmas, opinions, and privilege play into almost everything we do. Unless you want coaches to all be robots, I don't see a solution that's cut and dry. I get that it should be done freely. Where does that freedom start? With the parent who signs up their child, the coach who huddles the team, the boy who wants to say a prayer? I don't agree that it should only be done by students. The line between personal expression of a belief and how it impacts others is still murky for me. I still feel intent plays the strongest role in making those lines. Do you disagree?

I didn't realize it was expecting coaches to 'act like a robot' to expect them not to lead their team in a prayer.   Apparently I've been a 'robotic' cheerleading coach, because I've never once led my students in prayer or even mentioned god.  (Or rather, a lackthereof, and how silly it is to believe in such nonsense)

[tackattack]

I get that you want it to be just about playing ball. But nothing I can think of is that black and white. People's beliefs, stigmas, opinions, and privilege play into almost everything we do. Unless you want coaches to all be robots, I don't see a solution that's cut and dry. I get that it should be done freely. Where does that freedom start? With the parent who signs up their child, the coach who huddles the team, the boy who wants to say a prayer? I don't agree that it should only be done by students. The line between personal expression of a belief and how it impacts others is still murky for me. I still feel intent plays the strongest role in making those lines. Do you disagree?

I didn't realize it was expecting coaches to 'act like a robot' to expect them not to lead their team in a prayer.   Apparently I've been a 'robotic' cheerleading coach, because I've never once led my students in prayer or even mentioned god.  (Or rather, a lackthereof, and how silly it is to believe in such nonsense)

Which is exactly my point. It's not just that you only talked about cheer. You feel God and prayer are "silly ...to believe such nonsense". You don't think that comes out in your mannerisms or side comments as a coach? And what if someone wanted to talk about God or prayer but was afraid they'd be singled out and laughed at for their silly beliefs?

We can't separate who we are and what we believe from what we do. So what's the differentiating factor? Neither one of you answered the relevant question. If you make someone uncomfortable by being who you are and expressing yourself, should intent matter or is it always wrong? I believe this is the very basis of the social contract and you have to be ready to be offended if you want the freedom to express yourself publicly.


@arewethereyet - maybe it would be a little clearer to me if you could define the difference between "urging your belief system onto others", expressing myself and indoctrinating children?

[arewethereyet]

I didn't realize it was expecting coaches to 'act like a robot' to expect them not to lead their team in a prayer.   Apparently I've been a 'robotic' cheerleading coach, because I've never once led my students in prayer or even mentioned god.  (Or rather, a lackthereof, and how silly it is to believe in such nonsense)

Which is exactly my point. It's not just that you only talked about cheer. You feel God and prayer are "silly ...to believe such nonsense". You don't think that comes out in your mannerisms or side comments as a coach? And what if someone wanted to talk about God or prayer but was afraid they'd be singled out and laughed at for their silly beliefs?

We can't separate who we are and what we believe from what we do. So what's the differentiating factor? Neither one of you answered the relevant question. If you make someone uncomfortable by being who you are and expressing yourself, should intent matter or is it always wrong? I believe this is the very basis of the social contract and you have to be ready to be offended if you want the freedom to express yourself publicly.


@arewethereyet - maybe it would be a little clearer to me if you could define the difference between "urging your belief system onto others", expressing myself and indoctrinating children?

You aren't this ignorant and the act is getting old.

If you are suggesting prayer then you are urging kids to follow your belief system.  Kids are generally going to follow the lead of the adult in charge and you are taking advantage of being in that position.  Stop trying to pretend a sports huddle is a call to prayer.  It isn't...it's a way for teammates on the field to get together and quickly discuss the plan for the next play without revealing that plan to the other team.

[tackattack]

@arewethereyet I'm not trying to act obtuse, I'm attempting to clarify my biases on a forum with un-like minds. I am not pretending that a huddle is a call for worshiping God. I am not ignorant of the influence of positions of authority.

I would really appreciate you clarifying the difference between urging and expression as you are using it, because that IMO is where my lines aren't as clear as yours. If we can come to an agreement on those definitions I feel we could possibly move on to the should and responsibility of the issue.

[Cecelia]

Which is exactly my point. It's not just that you only talked about cheer. You feel God and prayer are "silly ...to believe such nonsense". You don't think that comes out in your mannerisms or side comments as a coach? And what if someone wanted to talk about God or prayer but was afraid they'd be singled out and laughed at for their silly beliefs?

No, it doesn't come out in my mannerisms or side comments as a coach.  I don't talk about my beliefs or lackthereof with my team, because I realize that it's 100% unprofessional to do so.

[LastPoet]

Well, coaching is nice and dandy, until you stop doing that, Tack. I is a game, meant for taking a ball with your feet, or in the US, an egg in hand. Ya know, god has better things to do than save your arse as a horrible coach.

[arewethereyet]

@arewethereyet I'm not trying to act obtuse, I'm attempting to clarify my biases on a forum with un-like minds. I am not pretending that a huddle is a call for worshiping God. I am not ignorant of the influence of positions of authority.

I would really appreciate you clarifying the difference between urging and expression as you are using it, because that IMO is where my lines aren't as clear as yours. If we can come to an agreement on those definitions I feel we could possibly move on to the should and responsibility of the issue.

I could etch it on glass and you will still say it's not clear enough.

If you want to preach then go preach.  If you want to coach, then coach.

If you want to preach while coaching, do it at a church based venue.