The Death Penalty - are you for or against it and why?

[Phaedra]

Murder and rape? That's it? What about torture?

[Violet]

I don't dump my problems on my neighbors: I just bar it from living in my house. Naturally, rats will find some other house to infest

Murder and rape? That's it? What about torture?

Rape is torture... so it is already represented, albeit more specifically

[kılıç_mehmet]

Just sticking with murder and rape, barring execution, I think the system we currently employ is a good one. It's our follow through where I think we don't do a decent enough job. Some people slip through the system, others are imprisoned without sufficient evidence. Some sentences are too harsh and others too lenient, but the system itself has a method of dealing with that in that we can change these things if we so chose.

Murder-Imprisonment for a length of time determined by the context of the crime.
Rape-Imprisonment for a length of time determined by the context of the crime.

We're not just throwing these people in jail to punish them, we're removing them from the people they may do further harm to, namely ourselves.

Well, I think that rehabilitation is generally more important than to just stick those people behind bars. It should be the case that prisons should be a part of society, even though prisoners cannot leave the complex, they should be able to participate in social life and contribute to society from there.

[Autumnlicious]

Presumably torture would either add to or enhance an existing charge and hence punishment.

I'm a big fan of fixing the obvious criminals and locking up the habitual ones for geometrically increasing sentences. So that every time you get back to jail, you spend longer, longer, longer... Perhaps in addition or in lieu of a sentence if said "longer" time is larger than the sentence itself?

Much better than the bullshit three strikes laws while eventually placing habitual criminals into long term lock up, which makes sense considering that they've not changed and gotten to that point.

However, please shoot this idea full of holes and how to game it. I'm curious as to my weak spots there.

[Epimethean]

To do what you suggest, Syn, and to do it in a manner that would be right, the first thing that would have to take place is a release of myriad prisoners who have been incarcerated for white collar crime and minor things like non-injurious (at least to others) drug related offenses. If your suggestion were to be implemented, it should be implemented only after removing those who pose no serious violent threat, such that the prison system takes on the shape of what it should be: A place for those who are actually bad people.

That said, I am and will likely remain a proponent of the death penalty for multiple offense rapists and murderers. There is no reason to keep them around. Elsewhere, you have argued against those who sympathize with animals used for scientific tests. Here, I might suggest that, in my eyes, these violent offenders should be used for such tests (or euthanized), as they are less valuable in the world than the animals they might replace, and potentially more so to scientific research.

[reverendjeremiah]

Just sticking with murder and rape, barring execution, I think the system we currently employ is a good one. It's our follow through where I think we don't do a decent enough job. Some people slip through the system, others are imprisoned without sufficient evidence. Some sentences are too harsh and others too lenient, but the system itself has a method of dealing with that in that we can change these things if we so chose.

I agree with everything you said except that we do a decent enough job, speaking of USA of course. It is a well known fact that if you are accused of a murder, your chance of good justice depend on wether you are outside of Texa's borders or not.

Murder-Imprisonment for a length of time determined by the context of the crime.
Rape-Imprisonment for a length of time determined by the context of the crime.

We're not just throwing these people in jail to punish them, we're removing them from the people they may do further harm to, namely ourselves.

And i agree with that, but not on a very long term basis. The idea of imprisoning someone for longer than a year disturbs me. I was in jail for about 24 hours once and it was HORRIBLE. It was very much like torture to me. I can only imagine the pain people have endured in 10 - 20- 30 or more years behind bars.

And now it is just as popular as ever that prisons be private and for profit, so that we turn the inmates into slaves. Working just to get out of the cage.

I am ashamed of humanity because of this! One of the many faults I find in our modern time.

[Autumnlicious]

That said, I am and will likely remain a proponent of the death penalty for multiple offense rapists and murderers. There is no reason to keep them around. Elsewhere, you have argued against those who sympathize with animals used for scientific tests. Here, I might suggest that, in my eyes, these violent offenders should be used for such tests (or euthanized), as they are less valuable in the world than the animals they might replace, and potentially more so to scientific research.

Thank you for that insight. To respond to the above, though, I'd point out that the Nazi's used people they deemed 'non human' for medical experiments, slave labor and eventually, lampshades.

Unit 731 of the Imperial Japanese Army conducted medical experiments on prisoners, also deemed 'unhuman' and undeserving on any special status other than cattle.

Nazi human experimentation led to many advances, one of note is research into hypothermia and exposure. Many Nazi scientists were released and even employed by Soviet and US interests post war, irrespective of their responsibility. Werner Von Braun knew about slave labor constructing V-2's and still led V-2 as a research program, consequences to ethics be damned.

REF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
REF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation

The second you start treating humans as less than human, you invite fascists who offer to take out the (human) garbage.

This is why I view you and those who make similar arguments to you as fascist collaborators -- because you speak to the puritanical reactionary inside some, if not all, of us; the same reactionary that yearns for the "good old days" and the like.

[Epimethean]

I am fine with your assessment of me, Syn. It is not entirely accurate, but there is no way for it to be so, as we approach this issue from different corners and different experience bases. I harken back to no good old days, but I do want horrible things to happen to horrible people. If using such humans for experiments is how they pay for their offenses, and if in doing so they benefit man and save animals which do not offer the same test bed accuracy, I support it. This does not make me a Nazi, because I am not rounding up a race of people for extermination, nor am I exalting one particular race. I simply want serial rapists and murderers gone-not simply sitting in a box, unless they are to be put to good use.

[5thHorseman]

Would you execute a woman who has been abused by her husband repeatedly for years, who commits a premeditated murder of him?

[Epimethean]

Nope. Not a serial rapist or serial killer. I'd support her killing the fucker.