Brahma and Abraham

[GrandizerII]

I would suspect the quote in the OP is very misleading and relies a lot on nitpicking, twisting facts, and seeing things that just aren't really there.

Yeah, it seems a bit of a stretch to me as well.

Boru

Thank you.

Gonna ignore gaslighting attempts from Gae as I don't have the time or motivation to deal with them.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Yeah, it seems a bit of a stretch to me as well.

Boru

Thank you.

You’re welcome.

While it may be the case that some elements of the stories about Brahma found their way into the stories about Abraham, it seems highly doubtful that the was done deliberately. 

Then again, I’m not a philologist, so I could be wrong (but I don’t think so).

Boru

[GrandizerII]

'Based on' and 'modeled on' are probably much too strong, as both imply a level of deliberate action that likely didn't exist.  I would expect it has more to do with cultural diffusion than anything else.

Boru

I would suspect the quote in the OP is very misleading and relies a lot on nitpicking, twisting facts, and seeing things that just aren't really there.

Cherry picking* not nitpicking

[The Grand Nudger]

Doesn't have to be deliberate, in whatever novel sense of being deliberate you have in mind, Boru. Syncretism isn't a conspiracy, lol. It's a uniform human behavior.

The ghost dance religion in n. america was modeled on the christian religion - but, surprise, it existed before they heard of christ as well.

Enjoy

Anthropologist James Mooney conducted an interview with Wilson prior to 1892. Mooney confirmed that his message matched that given to his fellow Indians.[2] This study compared letters between tribes. According to Mooney, Wilson's letter said he stood before God in heaven and had seen many of his ancestors engaged in their favorite pastimes, and that God showed Wilson a beautiful land filled with wild game and instructed him to return home to tell his people that they must love each other and not fight. He also stated that Jesus was being reincarnated on earth in 1892, that the people must work, not steal or lie, and that they must not engage in the old practices of war or the traditional self-mutilation practices connected with mourning the dead. He said that if his people abided by these rules, they would be united with their friends and family in the other world, and in God's presence, there would be no sickness, disease, or old age.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Dance

(we'll never run out of examples)

Now... let's run the cherrypicking explanation on that one. There was alot of other stuff in it, most of it was native belief - but this particular cherry wouldn't be there to pick, unless the christian influence was part of the pie.

[Belacqua]

seeing things that just aren't really there.

The OP is a lot like those people who see pictures of Jesus on their toast.

If you REALLY want to see a pattern, you'll see a pattern.

[The Grand Nudger]

..and here comes Bel to murder irony again...lol.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Doesn't have to be deliberate, in whatever novel sense of being deliberate you have in mind, Boru.  Syncretism isn't a conspiracy, lol.  It's a uniform human behavior.

The ghost dance religion in n. america was modeled on the christian religion - but, surprise, it existed before they heard of christ as well.  

Enjoy

Anthropologist James Mooney conducted an interview with Wilson prior to 1892. Mooney confirmed that his message matched that given to his fellow Indians.[2] This study compared letters between tribes. According to Mooney, Wilson's letter said he stood before God in heaven and had seen many of his ancestors engaged in their favorite pastimes, and that God showed Wilson a beautiful land filled with wild game and instructed him to return home to tell his people that they must love each other and not fight. He also stated that Jesus was being reincarnated on earth in 1892, that the people must work, not steal or lie, and that they must not engage in the old practices of war or the traditional self-mutilation practices connected with mourning the dead. He said that if his people abided by these rules, they would be united with their friends and family in the other world, and in God's presence, there would be no sickness, disease, or old age.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Dance

(we'll never run out of examples)

Now... let's run the cherrypicking explanation on that one.  There was alot of other stuff in it, most of it was native belief - but this particular cherry wouldn't be there to pick, unless the christian influence was part of the pie.

Well, to model something means to use an example to construct something, so it’s pretty clear that it has to be deliberate.

And the Wiki article says that, even being generous, the Ghost Dance dates from no earlier that the mid 19th century, by which time Christians had already been in the Americas for a few centuries. Do you really find it plausible that the natives had not heard of Christ in all that time? But once they’d heard of Christ, they deliberately incorporated that particular cherry.

In any event, it’s rather weak to compare the levels of interaction between European Christians and native Americans with that between the early Hebrews and the Hindus.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

Character creation ex nihilo is also deliberate in this sense.  OFC authors use tropes, deliberately.  That's syncretism.  Th same way that so many of our shows today end up espousing those tropes despite being originally created by distinct authors.

They can't help it, it's the world they live in.

Trade relations between hindus and hebrews are older than old magic book, and the similarities between the theological traditions has never been lost on researchers.  Then we have exile, where the group that would go on to write old magic book as we know it had even further contact. This is even recorded in old magic book. The issue of abraham is not the only bit considered for syncretism, either. There's nothing wrong with people being aware of a competent narrative device and using it, and nothing strange about two theologies with vast points of agreement finding value in each others stories and creating versions of that story that speak more directly to them and their specific beliefs.

One simple change helps people to contextualize this. "Early hebrews" are phoenicians displaced by war to baghdad, and further, who returned to their (real or percieved) place of origin and wrote an establishment myth for their -current- state, not as a historic treatise. They were now calling themselves judeans (after the redneck cousin to isreal, judah, which was spared in that war due to it's not being worth shit). That might be why the "ancient" battles in old magic book, purportedly set in 3-1k bc or some such trash, are really accurate representations of warfare between 6-8oo bc. What's truly hilarious, is that some went back and tried to convince the people still there that they were the legitimate rulers of the region, because of this story..and the people there didn't buy it.

You're arguing that there was no deliberate intent, but ofc there was...it's not the deliberateness that you're rejecting, it's something about that deliberateness. A negatively valued but silent assertion. Deliberate as euphemism for bad or untoward or duplicitous. Sure, it was never that (there was no singular author to have an ill will to assert) - but that won't mean that it wasn't syncretic.

[Brian37]

Here's a post about comparative mythology.

Was Abraham modeled on Brahma? Or are similarities just coincidences?

Here are few excerpts from a blogpost, for more click on the link below

The similarities between the names of Abraham and Brahma have not gone unnoticed. Abraham is said to be the father of the Jews, and Brahma, as the first created being, is often seen as the father of mankind...’ We might also note that the name of Brahma’s consort Sarasvati seems to resonate with that of Abraham’s wife, Sarah [… each one’s identity as a wife and/or sister]. Also, in India, the Sarasvati River includes a tributary known as the Ghaggar…. According to Jewish tradition, Hagar was Sarah’s maidservant…. Both Brahmins … and Jews see themselves as the ‘chosen people of God.’ The Hebrews began their sojourn through history as a ‘kingdom of priests’ (Exodus 19:6). Likewise, Brahmins are also a community of priests.

Abraham/Sarah and Brahma/Saraswati are not the only overlapping figures between Hindu and Hebrew traditions. Ajit Vadakayil points out that there is also Adam/Eve and Adhama/ Havyavati, along with Noah and Nyuha or Manu (Blogspot.com). As well, the Hebrew religion is one among a group of traditions (including Islam and Christianity) that believe that Abraham is their father. As well, since Brahma has will-born sons, Brahmanaspati (Lord of the Brahman Priests) and Brihaspati (Lord of the Burden Carriers), their relationship with Abraham cannot be answered so simply as the introductory title is asking.

The Ten Common Themes between Brahma (with his wish born sons) and Abraham

1.) Divine Eternal Lineage of Brahma and Abraham

i. Brahma as Father of All (RV7.97b), while Abraham as Father of many nations (Gen 17:5)

ii. Brahma is Creator of Universe (BG14.1-4, AV18.1.47, AV19.22.21), while Abraham’s descendants number as the stars of the sky.

Brahma bore all Gods (CU8.15.1), Celestial Beings and Enlightened Ones out of his body (RV1.40.5,7; MunU1.1.1-2), while God makes Abraham fruitful and the Genesis text literally reads: ‘kings come out from him’ (Gen 17:6).

Brahma and Sarasvati dwelt 100 years together then bore their first son, while Abraham was 100 when Sarah, at 90, bore Isaac

2.) The Priestly Offering of the Son of Brahma and Abraham

i. Brahma’s son (or grandson), Daksha, is killed at the offering sacrifice before all the gods, while Abraham almost offers his son Isaac.

ii. At the pleading of his father, Brihaspati (born from Brahma’s body, RV3.23.1) Daksha is resurrected with the head of a ram, while Abraham finds a ram caught in a bush to sacrifice in place of his son Isaac (Gen 22:1-13).


3.) The Wife and Sister of Brahma and Abraham: Sarasvati and Sarah

i. Brahma’s wife and sister is Sarasvati (SV7.96.2), Her beauty is so great that Brahma grew 4 faces to view her from the every direction (AV19.17; KenU3), while Abraham’s wife, Sarah, is also called his sister (Gen 20:12) and is beautiful (Gen 12:14).

ii. Compared to Brahma with faces of the four directions is Abraham who when called by God was to look North, East, West and South to the promised land, the 4 directions (Gen 13:14).

https://www.boloji.com/articles/15119/ab...hma-part-i

There is no relation between the two.

But having said that, in human history, societies that have never had a connection with each other, are very capable of coming up with similar concepts. 

If you watch the entire COSMOS series with Neil Degrasse Tyson, he makes this point several times. Like the fact Aboriginals in Australia had mythologies based on star patterns as did the ancient Chinese. 

The better argument to make would be proximity with mixing, because not all of history mixes. 

Buddhism for example, can be rightfully assumed to be a spin off of Hinduism based upon it's close and overlapping proximity to India. 

And as far as the Abrahamic big three, in Mesopotamia all of them are a spin off of prior Mesopotamia polytheism. 

But one cannot make a direct connection for example, that Buddha being far older than the Jesus mythology, that Christianity got it's avoiding the birth canal motif from Buddhists. Yet, the mythology, much older than Christianity has Buddha being born out of the side of Queen Maya. Neither of those religions are related. But, it is reasonable to say independently, that humans didn't like the messiness of birth, independent purity concepts would arise.

[The Grand Nudger]

These Jews are derived from the Indian philosophers; they are named by the Indians Calani.
-Flavius Josephus.

The Jews descend from the philosophers of India. The philosophers are called in India Calanians and in Syria Jews. The name of their capital is very difficult to pronounce. It is called 'Jerusalem.
-Clearchus of Soli

Ishmael breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his kin... They dwelt from Havilah, by Shur, which is close to Egypt, all the way to Asshur."
-Gen 25:17-18

Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, Even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor; and they served other gods. And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan."
-Joshua 24:2-3

We know that by 1900bc, the cult of brahma had been transported to the middle east and ane. Constant contact, as the eastern coast of the med was a very important jumping off point for goods flowing from east to west. That's why the area kept getting rolled by neighboring empires. Old magic book was written between 1250 and 165. There are definite relations between the two, the names of the characters in question in this regard are, themselves, of sanskrit origin. It is pointless to assert that people do not influence each others beliefs and myths. The people who wrote old magic book collected and incorporated quite a few of other peoples myths over time, just as we all do, and they had the same effect on the people they were in contact with, as well.

(I'll try to find a long post on the golden rule that shows how, even when two or more cultures come to some general idea independently, the final product and detail of what we see today will still be affected by contact and syncretism, and can be traced through time and geography in no uncertain sense - maps and errything, lol. Think min and I were geeking out about this at the time. Confucianism, Buddhism, Abrahamism, and Hinduism are all very closely related. They couldn't help but be effected by each other because they all sat on the most important trade route that had ever existed in their times. Silk and tin and spice weren't the only things crossing continents.)