The problem of the soul

[Angrboda]

I'm not sure any of this is productive.

[Spongebob]

@WinterHold said:

Essentially that's what I meant by "transitional" state: Plasma is a temporary state that superheated matter goes through: that's not "matter" -even if science said so today- but rather a "transitional state into something we didn't yet discover".

The question I would ask myself is this: what happens to matter after turning to plasma? what's the next state?

But you are simply wrong about this.  We have established that it is consensus science that plasma is matter.  That case is closed.  Any arguments to the contrary are outside of science.

Clearly you didn't read what I posted earlier about neon lights.  Neon lights are an example of plasma.  Plasma is just heated gas, which forms ions.  Ions are not something other than matter or outside our understanding; they are just atoms with a number of electrons stripped away or added on; nothing more.  You can have ions in liquid state as well.  High school chemistry students understand this stuff.

In a neon light, you flip a switch, energy is added in the form of electricity and plasma is formed from the gas inside the tubes.  You can leave it on for years if you like; nothing transitional about it.  Turn off the switch, the energy goes away and the gas returns to its more stable state.  There is no "after turning to plasma".  There's nothing fantastic about it; it's pretty boring physics, actually.  There's way more astonishing physics out there to ponder; stuff we can barely understand.

I believe what you may be thinking about it what happens to matter (atoms) if they are torn apart, if the atom itself is broken into its constituent parts.  Well, there's a simple answer to that one as well:

[The Grand Nudger]

I think there's more actual valid debate to be had in grand nudger's assertion.  Why can't god be made of matter?  

Historically, the immateriality of god is related to convictions regarding it's incorruptibility.  However, we're told that they're immensely powerful and interact with and within the world and that this is an objective phenomena.  

Stuff that objectively interacts with other stuff is the same sort of stuff in that respect, at least, or so it seems to me.

@WinterHold
What do you think?  Can god be made of stuff?  If so, what sort of stuff..if not, why not?

[Angrboda]

I think there's more actual valid debate to be had in grand nudger's assertion.  Why can't god be made of matter?  

Historically, the immateriality of god is related to convictions regarding it's incorruptibility.  However, we're told that they're immensely powerful and interact with and within the world and that this is an objective phenomena.  

Stuff that objectively interacts with other stuff is the same sort of stuff in that respect, at least, or so it seems to me.

@WinterHold
What do you think?  Can god be made of stuff?  If so, what sort of stuff..if not, why not?

That's very reminiscent of Popper's Third World, which many see as a problem. If there's a world where one kind of stuff interacts, and a second world where a different kind of stuff interacts, then there must be a third world where world one stuff and world two stuff are able to interact. I tend to see the problems inherent in such a view arguing strongly for monism. However, in a monist world, a lot of God stuff wouldn't happen.

[WinterHold]

@WinterHold said:

Essentially that's what I meant by "transitional" state: Plasma is a temporary state that superheated matter goes through: that's not "matter" -even if science said so today- but rather a "transitional state into something we didn't yet discover".

The question I would ask myself is this: what happens to matter after turning to plasma? what's the next state?

But you are simply wrong about this.  We have established that it is consensus science that plasma is matter.  That case is closed.  Any arguments to the contrary are outside of science.

Clearly you didn't read what I posted earlier about neon lights.  Neon lights are an example of plasma.  Plasma is just heated gas, which forms ions.  Ions are not something other than matter or outside our understanding; they are just atoms with a number of electrons stripped away or added on; nothing more.  You can have ions in liquid state as well.  High school chemistry students understand this stuff.

In a neon light, you flip a switch, energy is added in the form of electricity and plasma is formed from the gas inside the tubes.  You can leave it on for years if you like; nothing transitional about it.  Turn off the switch, the energy goes away and the gas returns to its more stable state.  There is no "after turning to plasma".  There's nothing fantastic about it; it's pretty boring physics, actually.  There's way more astonishing physics out there to ponder; stuff we can barely understand.

I believe what you may be thinking about it what happens to matter (atoms) if they are torn apart, if the atom itself is broken into its constituent parts.  Well, there's a simple answer to that one as well:

I did read your posts but obviously you didn't get my meaning: the "transitional" state I'm speaking about is anything "less powerful than the next state"; meaning is:

1-solid is the current state, you convert to "liquid" via heat.
2-liquid is the current state, you convert to "gas" via heat
3-gas is the current state, you convert to "plasma" via heat


And here is your last comment:

4-Plasma is the current state, you convert to (......) via (.....)??? 

You brought an example on the exploding of atoms via heat which results in "nuclear explosion".

But I googled the next phrase:

what stronger than nuclear fusion

Now we're talking : this is exactly what I want so thank you for opening the thought for me.

Turns out the answer is:

“Quark Fusion” Produces Eight Times More Energy Than Nuclear Fusion

 https://futurism.com/quark-fusion-produc...ear-fusion

My theory is that the soul cannot be found exactly because so many facts are still "theoretical" like Quark fusion. But I think the electricity in the brain might be the soul..

---

@WinterHold
What do you think?  Can god be made of stuff?  If so, what sort of stuff..if not, why not?

No, according to the Quran he is the most unique thing; the famous verses describe what he is:

Sura 6,The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 102 )   That is Allah, your Lord; there is no deity except Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He is Disposer of all things.
( 103 )   Vision perceives Him not, but He perceives [all] vision; and He is the Subtle, the Acquainted.

Sura 112, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 1 )   Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One,
( 2 )   Allah, the Eternal Refuge.
( 3 )   He neither begets nor is born,
( 4 )   Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

He is totally unique, our eyes cant even see him in this life, when I picture God I just picture a blank void; actually we were taught that from a very young age by our parents as Muslims; Anthropomorphism is despised by Islam.

[Spongebob]

I did read your posts but obviously you didn't get my meaning: the "transitional" state I'm speaking about is anything "less powerful than the next state"; meaning is:

1-solid is the current state, you convert to "liquid" via heat.
2-liquid is the current state, you convert to "gas" via heat
3-gas is the current state, you convert to "plasma" via heat


And here is your last comment:

4-Plasma is the current state, you convert to (......) via (.....)??? 

You brought an example on the exploding of atoms via heat which results in "nuclear explosion".

But I googled the next phrase:

what stronger than nuclear fusion

Now we're talking : this is exactly what I want so thank you for opening the thought for me.

Turns out the answer is:

“Quark Fusion” Produces Eight Times More Energy Than Nuclear Fusion

 https://futurism.com/quark-fusion-produc...ear-fusion

My theory is that the soul cannot be found exactly because so many facts are still "theoretical" like Quark fusion. But I think the electricity in the brain might be the soul..

---

Hold on a minute, I'm glad you were inclined to think about the subject, but I only posted that mushroom cloud photo as a joke.  Nuclear fusion is not the "next state" of matter after plasma.  Fusion does require massive, and I mean way massive, amounts of energy, but this is NOT changing matter from one state to another, it's actually changing from one element to another.  Initiating fusion is about getting atoms to a level of energy where they become "willing" to fuse together and form a different element.  Note NOT "new" matter, but a different element.  The amount of matter doesn't change.

===Sidebar===
Note that fission and fusion are not the same thing.  Fission is accomplished using neutron bombardment, which splits an atom into smaller atoms, releasing lots of energy.  Fusion is when you cause two atoms of one element together to form a different element, and even more energy is released.  Both reactions cause huge explosions, thus atom bombs (fission) and thermonuclear bombs (fusion).
==========  

So fusion is what stars do, they literally fuse two atoms to form a new one.  Stars fuse Hydrogen atoms to make Helium.  They fuse Helium atoms to make Carbon and Oxygen...and so on.  Understand, this is not NEW matter, it's just changing from one element to another.  

What you looked up, quark-fusion, is still only theoretical; it's never been tried and from the looks of it that's probably a good thing.  Quarks are sub-atomic particles, so we're not talking about plasma anymore.  We're not even talking about matter, per se, but rather what makes matter, matter.     At this point you are getting into the more esoteric aspects of physics.  If you are just Googling this stuff, you are most likely not going to understand it.  I suggest you read a few good books on the subject; there are thousands available.  But I warn you, it can get EXTREMELY difficult to comprehend the deeper you go.  I've read books written by Isaac Asimov decades ago and he had a great talent for making difficult concepts easy to understand.  Lots of people read an article or two about quarks or higgs bosons and start imagining they understand how god interacts with the universe.  Unless you have an intellect on par with Stephen Hawking, I highly discourage that sort of thinking.  If you have any intellectual capacity at all, studying physics at this level has an enormous humbling effect because you get just an inkling of how complex realty is and it becomes evident that we have only scratched the surface, if that.

[The Grand Nudger]

He is totally unique, our eyes cant even see him in this life, when I picture God I just picture a blank void; 

There's alot of stuff our eyes cant see, a whole universe of unique stuff just like that, isn't there?  

actually we were taught that from a very young age by our parents as Muslims; Anthropomorphism is despised by Islam.

Is a burger being made out of stuff anthropomorphizing a burger?  Is that what you think the term refers to?  

What your parents were probably trying to tell you is that it's not kosher to imagine god as a human man with a face, etc.  Most stuff isn't a human man, and doesn't have a face, more of the same from above.

I'm trying to figure out why god can't be stuff.  Not wondering whether it has a visible penis.

By the by, the impulses in the brain aren't actually electricity, we're not a piece of consumer electronics (as the contention goes, we're not a program or even the machine, we're the product of the immensely powerful drugs the whole thing is sitting in)- but it makes for a good analogy to how being could be mechanically arrived at. If that thing, our being, which you call a soul...can be stuff.... and you seem to believe very strongly that it is stuff....that only makes it even more mystifying that you reject the notion of god as stuff. Doesn't it?

[Neo-Scholastic]

Historically, the immateriality of god is related to convictions regarding it's incorruptibility.  However, we're told that they're immensely powerful and interact with and within the world and that this is an objective phenomena.  

Stuff that objectively interacts with other stuff is the same sort of stuff in that respect, at least, or so it seems to me.

@WinterHold
What do you think?  Can god be made of stuff?  If so, what sort of stuff..if not, why not?

That's very reminiscent of Popper's Third World, which many see as a problem. If there's a world where one kind of stuff interacts, and a second world where a different kind of stuff interacts, then there must be a third world where world one stuff and world two stuff are able to interact. I tend to see the problems inherent in such a view arguing strongly for monism. However, in a monist world, a lot of God stuff wouldn't happen.

Not every problem is a defeater though. As a common objection to dualism it is really and argument from ignorance and or incredulity. If the only positions we can reasonably hold are those without unresolved problems then we could not reasonably hold any positions.

[Angrboda]

That's very reminiscent of Popper's Third World, which many see as a problem.  If there's a world where one kind of stuff interacts, and a second world where a different kind of stuff interacts, then there must be a third world where world one stuff and world two stuff are able to interact.  I tend to see the problems inherent in such a view arguing strongly for monism.  However, in a monist world, a lot of God stuff wouldn't happen.

Not every problem is a defeater though. As a common objection to dualism it is really and argument from ignorance and or incredulity. If the only positions we can reasonably hold are those without unresolved problems then we could not reasonably hold any positions.

It might also be a question of infinite regress or a mereological issue. I don't know. I hadn't considered your objection previously. I'm not sure it's necessarily so. I'll have to give it some thought.

[Ahriman]

The human soul can be shaped throughout a person's entire lifetime, unlike the mind, which develops very early in a person's life.