New theistic chew toys wanted!

[The Grand Nudger]

No, besides gods, Buddhists and Hindus and objective morality, what other examples of transcendant values are you referring to that aren't a part of one of these religions.

Really, any of them - I already mentioned our civil religions, vulcan offered beauty, the list could go on and on with the things people have pointed to and called transcendent value - we could even discuss the notion of transcendence itself.  

I'm sure that plenty of transcendent values are part of plenty of religions, entirely sure - I just don't see any of them as the exclusive property of those religions with gods, or buddhism, or hinduism.  I don't see why you would need a god for a civil religion or beauty, or to believe in transcendence at all, and, obviously - I don't know why people would say that or to what they mean to refer. It seems manifestly false by simple reference to the transcendent things people who don't believe in gods or any eastern religion do absolutely believe in, right down to notions of love and family.

If it's more that, yes, people believe in those things, but outside of religions with gods, buddhism, hinduism..you don't think it's well explained or could be - well, gods and superstitions probably don't amount to that good explanation either. On some level, it may be that religions posit these things because we apprehend them, and you don't have to be religious, let alone a believer in a god, to apprehend a thing -rightly or wrongly.

I know I've very recently made these exact comments, but when it comes to value, I don't think that theism provides any specific or exclusive value other than it's asserted god-value. Transcendent values, on the other hand, are there for anyone to hold (or not) regardless of whether they believe in gods.

[Ahriman]

God(s) provide(s) transcendent value. Nothing else can compare.

[The Architect Of Fate]

God(s) provide(s) transcendent value. Nothing else can compare.

Unfounded statement

[The Grand Nudger]

In what way? I'd asked you before why you believe that people who don't believe in gods couldn't believe in transcendent value. Just use me as an example. I see nothing transcendent about your god, or anyone else's. I see that you use those gods to talk about transcendent value - and I don't agree with you on the entire value contents of your personal ideology - but we do at least agree that there is or may be transcendent value.

Why, exactly, can't I exist.... and what would your personal preference for some thing you see to be incomparable have to do with me or how I see the world, anyway? You say god-value is incomparable, I say it isn't worth a shit. You might think I'm wrong - but then I'd just be wrong about a thing - not incapable of believing a thing or existing as I am.

[Ahriman]

In what way?  I'd asked you before why you believe that people who don't believe in gods couldn't believe in transcendent value.  Just use me as an example.  I see nothing transcendent about your god, or anyone else's.  I see that you use those gods to talk about transcendent value - and I don't agree with you on the entire value contents of your personal ideology - but we do at least agree that there is or may be transcendent value.

Why, exactly, can't I exist.... and what would your personal preference for some thing you see to be incomparable have to do with me or how I see the world, anyway?  You say god-value is incomparable, I say it isn't worth a shit.

So you just want to be contrarian? That's fine, I guess, but that doesn't make for a good argument. The value provided by God or gods is of the highest quality. There are other transcendent values, but a belief in God (or gods) is the most transcendent of them all.

[The Grand Nudger]

The way I see the world is different than the way you see the world, that's not being a contrarian - it's just telling you as much directly. It's not even an argument, it's a flat declaration.

I'm glad you've managed to come around to clarifying your earlier statement. You don't actually believe that people who don't believe in gods can't really believe in transcendent values, you just think gods and god value are some quality shit. Well, again, I don't - but I have other questions. By what unit of measurement do you think god value is more transcendent than transcendent value, and what on earth does that even mean?

[Ahriman]

The way I see the world is different than the way you see the world, that's not being a contrarian - it's just telling you as much directly.  It's not even an argument, it's a flat declaration.

By what unit of measurement do you think god value is more transcendent than transcendent value, and what on earth does that even mean?

In the reality of a theist, the God (or gods) he/she believe(s) in, is/are the most ideal thing(s). In a theist's mind, nothing gets better, or more important, than God (or the gods). Theists are hyper focused on God (or the gods), their whole lives revolve around God (or the gods). It should be obvious why nothing could ever replace something like this.

[Silver]

When religion makes people happy, it's a fake happiness brought on by self-delusion. This quote still remains relevant: "Better the horrible truth than the comforting lie."

[Ahriman]

When religion makes people happy, it's a fake happiness brought on by self-delusion. This quote still remains relevant: "Better the horrible truth than the comforting lie."

Truth isn't worth much if it makes you miserable.

[The Grand Nudger]

The way I see the world is different than the way you see the world, that's not being a contrarian - it's just telling you as much directly.  It's not even an argument, it's a flat declaration.

By what unit of measurement do you think god value is more transcendent than transcendent value, and what on earth does that even mean?

In the reality of a theist, the God (or gods) he/she believe(s) in, is/are the most ideal thing(s). In a theist's mind, nothing gets better, or more important, than God (or the gods). Theists are hyper focused on God (or the gods), their whole lives revolve around God (or the gods). It should be obvious why nothing could ever replace something like this.

I've not known the vast majority of theists to be monks or nuns - their lives are organized around god about as much as my own, in practice - but I think I understand a little of where you're coming from.  Other people, you could grant, see other things to be as important or crucial as you or any theist may believe your god to be?

Yes, we get that you really like coke and think it's the best, but you do acknowledge that there are pepsi fans in the world too, right?

It's really not obvious that nothing could replace that, as there are people who never needed anything replaced, and for many people who fell away from a god based faith, something has.

Do you believe that you would suddenly lose all apprehension of transcendental value if the status of your beliefs in gods changed?