Russia and Ukraine

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm guessing the answer was no - ukraine didn't meet the requirement. That's going to have to be something that nato looks at going forward, whether those requirements lead to exactly the thing nato was formed to prevent - and..as a nato country, the us is in theory committed to promoting nato and natos interests. If a person genuinely believes that "the us made us attack ukraine" is any kind of valid justification, then "russia made us incorporate the entire european continent into nato" is pretty much equivalent.

(and I know, I know, we dispensed with validity and with justification earlier when we suggested that it's just a might makes right "we do what we do because fuck you is why" situation)

[Anomalocaris]

Basically, the US massively overreached.   When Russia called our bluff, rather than reflect upon how it came to be that we so overreached, we became apoplectic at having our bluff called and focused on demonizing the one who called our bluff.

This gives me little hope that either our policy establishment or our popular opinion and sentiment will do any better in the future.


Our original mistake was GeorgeBushian, or neoconservative.

and now, without trump being in the whitehouse, our collective response to the consequence of our mistake is still Trumpian.

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't think that putin needed our help demonizing him in this instance. I don't think it's necessarily bad for him that people might think of him harshly in that context as a leader of a state, either, though.

[Anomalocaris]

His being demonized in the west no doubt helps his popularity in russia. the generation that lived through the Gorbachev era, the fall of the soviet union, and then the yelsin era regard popularity of a russian politician as prima facia evidence of treason and selling out russia.

There is a rather interesting painting that has acquired a rather symbolic status in russia, rather like the famous paint of Washington crossing the Delaware. It is a painting of Evgeny Primakov, russian premier in 1997, seated in front of the window of his airplane talking on the phone. The background of that painting is primakov was on his way to washington DC on a state visit to meet with Clinton. on the agenda was discussion about the situation in Serbia, a country of fellow orthodox slavs with whom the russians feel such a sense of kinship that it went to war with germany on serbia’s behalf at the start of world war one, and with whom the russians still feel a sense of solidarity that the west utterly ignored, while in the air, he received news that Clinton had ordered US airforce to bomb Belgrade. ,

primakov immediately ordered his plane to turn around and return to Russia.

This painting has been taken to reflect the end of russia’s down ward spiral after the fall of USSR, and the beginning of a new russia that realizes America was still out to diminish Russia and peel away its traditional allie’s, even one’s that dates to long before communism, and determined to fight for its purgatives by confrontation and violence as necessary,

as it turns out, the notion that that scene reflected the turning point is a bit of a myth. Yelsin eta still had 3 more years to run, and during the first 5 years of the Putin era Russia continues to see accommodation and appeasement of the west as the best course.

However, myth though the painting reflects, what a country chooses to mythologize offers a more clear insight into its moods than any sound bite taken from street interviews by western news organizations.

[Fake Messiah]

At least something positive: Anti-war protests in Russia

[The Grand Nudger]

I spent some time in pristina. Ironically enough (given the absurd pretext for war the russian state has offered) serbia was killing off albanian muslims, so I'm not sure that any deep affinity russia had for serbia would be relevant. We were still there when the business of the us army turned into killing muslims elsewhere.

As I recall, milosevic had also blamed nato and the west as he butchered people, not at all dissimilar to the bullshit coming forth from the mouth of the russian leader today.

[Fake Messiah]

We were still there when the business of the us army turned into killing muslims elsewhere.

As I recall milosevic had also blamed nato and the west as he butchered people.

And has winterhold thanked you or savings so many Muslim lives?

[The Grand Nudger]

Unfortunately, no, but the people there and ofc the expat community here have been more than generous in their thanks, not to me personally - no one knows me from adam. Personally, I'd have done it for nothing...which was convenient, as that's a pretty close approximation to my pay rate at the time.

[Deesse23]

Pro-western Ukrainian governments since 2005 has been clammering for NATO member ship as a way to burn the bridge with russia and preventing Ukraine from backsliding towards russian influence.   

Maybe, just maybe that has to do something with how well the Ukrainian SSR did under the USSR? Do you have a problem with sovereign and independent states, electing leaders who act in their countries own interest and not Russias?
I dont give a fuck about Russia as much as Putin gives a fuck about me. Lately he was asked if he intends to give back Ospreussen to Germany. Guess his answer: Germany lost WWII
Too bad, (soviet)Russia lost the following cold one. History sucks. Get.used.to.this.Vlad.

I am fed up with this russo apologetic BS.
If you want to give Putin Ukriane, then i want to have: Pommern, Schlesien, Ostpreussen and Memelland. Austria too if you may. The country that curerntly makes Poland is also artificial, more so than Ukraine ever was, to a large extend former gemran territory. Poland was entired shifted westwards, because Stalin wanted some parts of then Poland. Why not adress that?
What? You have different standards for Putin , Poland and me?
Too bad.

---

His being demonized in the west 

He is imprisoning and sentencing political opponents at will, looking away (if not involved in) killing of inconvenient journalists (or former FSB whistleblowers), has destroyed free press and ceased to hold free elections (even then he needed to resort to prohibit an opponent from being able to run for election, thats how shit scared of the last bit of freedom in Russia he is). He made being gay illegal. He also, just lately, invaded an independent country.

Yes, he is a pretty bad hombre. Ymmv o.c..

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Can we just skip to the end where Putin kills himself in a bunker?

Boru