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UK STRIKE DAY 30TH NOVEMBER
#71
RE: UK STRIKE DAY 30TH NOVEMBER
(November 27, 2011 at 2:08 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: Me, you and bozo are nowhere near bordering on fascism. Me and bozo share NOTHING in common with fascism, which is median to right wing extreme authoritarianism. right wing libertarians only share some right wing aspects that fascists agree with, but oppose their authoritarianism. this is what was confussing me before, but now I have corrected it.
In other words, me and bozo are diametrically opposed to the concept of fascism. we are the complete opposite of fascists.
As far as "all the times he has attacked me", I just dont see it. I have, on the other hand, seen you openly attack him on this thread.
Fascism is extreme authoritarianism; its place on a "left-right" spectrum is still disputed by political academics. Fascists hold nothing in common with right-wing libertarians. Fascists want a state-controlled and regulated economy, something very much in common with branches of socialism. Maybe you should read up on what fascism actually is before you attempt to argue it in a discussion?

If you haven't seen any examples of bozo attacking me, you are either blind, delusional, or lying. After I said he had lost his sense of humour, he responded "Fuck you, arsehole." That's just one example.

Quote:so then you support socialistic methods to ensure that everyone eats and has good healthcare regardless of social status and monetary gain. If so, then that doesnt make you right wing libertarian, nor does it make you anarcho-capitalist. It makes you more on the line that me and Bozo are on. So which one is it? Do you support capitalism, or do you support socialism? supporting capitalism means you expect losers to exist, and just like the recent GOP candidate discussions, you would applaud the idea of the man dying that could not afford healthcare. Socialists dispise this idea, and therefore want universal healthcare so that children and families will not die.
So which one is it..are you socialist or capitalist?
No, I don't support socialistic methods to ensure everyone eats or has good healthcare. I'm not even sure how that comes into a discussion of savings vs pensions. I support capitalism, and I support individualism. I believe that in a society where the government tries not to interfere with individual matters, charities will. That is, without "big brother" looking after us, we look after each other.

No, I would not applaud the idea of a man dying because he could not afford healthcare. This is just another lie and smear, and also completely uncalled for. Believe it or not, there are alternatives to universal healthcare; how about having societies look after their members themselves, through the extra money they get from not having to support big government.

Quote:You didnt? So you want people to decide wether they want a socialist state, just as long as you can "opt out"? That makes zero sense, and sounds more like privatised health insurance as opposed to universal health. So you want other children to have free healthcare, but you dont want to pay for it? Yet that somehow makes you in support of healthcare for poor children and families? You are making ZERO sense and sound more like you are back peddling to me.
No, I want people to be in charge of their own decisions. The current system we have in the UK works a bit like that. The government supply a minimum pension to people over retirement age. If you pay more into that pension, you get more at the end. Alternatively, you can invest your money in savings. There is nothing back peddling about it, given that I never even commented on policy before now. As I stated, all my posts in this thread have been about MY personal choice.

Quote:Wait. So If I flip burgers, and you create security software, then you think I should get the same outcome as you? Same pay? Same benefits? If so, how is that capitalism? How is that right wing libertarianism? What you described is what me and bozo advocate.
No, I believe that a person should get out of a system something proportional to what they put into it. It requires far more skill and expertise to creature security software than it does to flip burgers, which means I am entitled to more output (a higher wage) than the person who flips burgers. "Equal output" to me means that the only things considered are the skills and amount of work put into the job. We don't care who the people are; what colour they are, what gender they are. If they put x amount of work in, they get x amount of money for it. If they put 10x amount of work in, they get 10x amount of money for it.

If you honestly advocate the same pay across the board, independent of the job at hand, then I'm in disbelief. In no sane system should a person who does a relatively easy job (flipping burgers to use your example) be given the same amount of pay as someone who risks their life, or who has invested time and money in gaining skills that are one in a million. That isn't fair.

Quote:Bozo censored you? How? When? Where?
Bozo defends inequality, borders fascism, and defends censorship? That isnt Bozo. Me and him have had many PM's and I can honestly say he is NOT what you suggest he is.
Bozo hasn't censored me. Bozo supports censorship. He has on occasion in these forums, expressed the view that he wants racist behaviour punishable in some way, even if it is just expressing a view. Recently, he supported action taken against a woman who had a golliwog displayed in her window. That is censorship.

I'm sure you've had many PMs with bozo. I'm sure the fact that you guys agree on most things doesn't in any way affect your view of him. </sarcasm>

Quote:Oh, I get it. Look at Adrian beat his chest. adrian is so much more better than those out there fighting for a better life. Of course, those who are fighting for a better life do not have the same sense of duty that Adrian has. Or do they have NO sense of duty Adrian? So everytime I went on strike, I was merely loafing around, skipping work and shirking my sense of duty while Adrian held his head high and kept letting the system ram a dry one into him. This one quote you posted speaks VOLUMES of your naivety and ignorance of labor history Adrian. If you had of done something like this on a job I was on, I would have ganged up with quite a few other brothers and ran your ass off on a rail.
There is also a name for people who refuse to strike and talk the way you do in my circles. "A scab". Do whatever you can to protect your employer from being hurt Adrian. Im sure they will eventually reward you for it...hopefully...and when you see everyone who tried to fight for YOUR and their rights get walked off the job, you can rub your hands together thinking of how quick you can move up the ladder.
You see, you've just admitted to ganging up on people. How many people do you think strike out of fear of being called a "scab"? Probably a fair few; those that are thankful for the jobs they have, and just want to work hard. Well I don't care if I'm a "scab". I'd rather be a scab and work hard at my job, than strike and leave those who depend on my work behind, especially if they include children in need of an education.
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#72
RE: UK STRIKE DAY 30TH NOVEMBER
If people want their children to have a quality education they can pay a premium price for the service, can they not? Why criticize the service provider because they refuse to render said service for the amount offered (or the conditions or terms that are part of the offer)?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#73
RE: UK STRIKE DAY 30TH NOVEMBER
(November 27, 2011 at 12:55 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Democratically decided selfishness is still selfishness in my view, so is selfishness that is protected under the law.
Granted

(November 27, 2011 at 12:55 pm)Tiberius Wrote: I'd like to know what plans are in place to "prevent harm". As far as I am aware, the reports in the new suggest that many schools are closing, which means many parents will either have to (a) skip work to look after them, which will hurt the private sector, or (b) hire someone to look after their children, which will hurt them financially. Will the students get an extra day of school this year? I've seen no plans for that to happen.
Plans are in place to protect essential services. Those workers are exempt from strike action.

Of course families will lose money. They fully understand that. Another 'selfless' act. For those who cannot afford to strike but do, union funds will make up for the loss.

School children will miss out on a days education, sure.

(November 27, 2011 at 12:55 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Indeed, the figures quoted by the numerous newspapers put the strike at a total cost of £500 million to the economy. Not only that, but bozo is demanding that private sector workers skip work to support the strike (at least, he tried to get me to do it). This is either selfish behaviour, or it is anti-economic behaviour (or both). I'm not supporting the strike because I don't believe strikes are the best way to negotiate anything; in fact, all they generally do is cost a lot of money, and piss everyone off. I also find striking an invasive mechanism into the free market, since it is a legal way for workers to skip work and not get punished by their employers. If one person slacks off, they get fired. If a group of people slack off, they get protected by government. Ridiculous.
You can't 'slack off' if you're not getting paid.

If the government provides this means of objection, then that is the fault of their system and not the workers: who are actually the scape goats no matter which way you look at it.

You would criticise them for not exercising their democratic right and you criticise them for using it.
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#74
RE: UK STRIKE DAY 30TH NOVEMBER
Quote:You see, you've just admitted to ganging up on people. How many people do you think strike out of fear of being called a "scab"? Probably a fair few; those that are thankful for the jobs they have, and just want to work hard. Well I don't care if I'm a "scab". I'd rather be a scab and work hard at my job, than strike and leave those who depend on my work behind, especially if they include children in need of an education.

You can be thankful for your job all you want. Those who are job scared are willing slaves to wage. And then I am supposed to just go on your word that people strike for fear of being called a scab? How many people in your work wh refuse to strike refuse on the grounds that they feel that people like you might turn them over to the bosses? Probably a fair few, wouldnt you think? You see, that "what if" game can be played both ways, and has ZERO bearing on the strike at hand. And more of your chest beating, suggesting that because you dont strike you are a harder worker than others, and then drag in children needing to be educated to spice up the guilt.

I work HEAVY industrial labor. I deal with huge and heavy sticks of ridgid conduit on a daily basis, suspended up 50+ foot in the air screwing these pipes together, in the hot summer sun or fighting the ice of winter. Then I have to pull in huge cables and introduce high voltage to them, which I sometimes have to work on them live. Lately I have been jack hammering concrete in order to sink these pipes far enough under ground for them to be safe from people who dig. All this while welders lift tons of metal over my head with welding sparks flying all over me...and I do this at 60+ hours per week. Sometimes I do this work standing on boats underneath peirs of military bases. Sometimes I am in the manhole doing work with the equivalent of one million+ volts surrounding me, that merely needs a single pin prick in their insulation to cause an explosion that will take my life, not to mention the snakes and black widow spiders. I face a very painful death as a real situation every day I walk onto my job.

Since we are discussing who works hard at their job and who doesnt, I will ask you this: If the employer tries to fuck me because of my wages, and tries to keep them stagnant, and I go on strike because of it (and therefore cost my own family money in the process) does that make you a harder worker than I because you decided not to strike from your inside computer job?

As far as I am concerned, if you are willing to co-op with society, then your job is equal to mine and you deserve equal outcome. Let me explain...

Quote:If you honestly advocate the same pay across the board, independent of the job at hand, then I'm in disbelief. In no sane system should a person who does a relatively easy job (flipping burgers to use your example) be given the same amount of pay as someone who risks their life, or who has invested time and money in gaining skills that are one in a million. That isn't fair.

I very much believe it. I dont even expect you to comprehend it, nor study it, nor even care about it. It IS fair, it is very fair. In fact, giving every human on this planet an equal slice of the pie is the fairest system in the world. The fact that you cannot see the truth of this is because your eyes are blinded by greed.

Currently, I feel that you flip flop so much when you talk that you arent even sure what you stand for. I stand for labor. I stand for people being the value of a society.

Now, feel free to respond to this. Once you have responded, I suggest that both of us back away from each other for a time being..as we are obviously upsetting some of the members...even though we are pretty much staying on topic, its getting a bit heated. I will let you have the last word on me for our discussion as a promisory note that, even though we may not agree, I still consider your freedom of speech to be important.
Reply
#75
RE: UK STRIKE DAY 30TH NOVEMBER
There is something fundamentally wrong about how we determine what an hour of a human life is worth (or an hour of any particular job). For example, sanitation workers get paid jack shit. Apparently we'd rather be up to our eyeballs in our own feces rather than pay them more and some admin somewhere (or even the admin that works in the same field) a little less. How much would I have to pay you to handle my refuse, and biological waste? How much to handle the refuse and waste of an entire city 12 to 14 hours a day 7 days a week? Don't forget the hypos people love to leave in their trashcans or throw in the gutter.

(hint: minimum wage or less in most cases, and just forget about insurance, benefits, or overtime. Unless of course you belong to a union, if that's even an option in whatever state or jurisdiction you live in.)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#76
RE: UK STRIKE DAY 30TH NOVEMBER
Revvie Wrote:as we are obviously upsetting some of the members

Please don't mistake my irritation for upset Tiger I'm upset as well, but that's in part due to my depression and it's solely based in the real-life spectrum.

Now some random rpg music that none of you will like because 'Why the fuck not?'



Yeah, I'm done now.

Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
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#77
RE: UK STRIKE DAY 30TH NOVEMBER
(November 27, 2011 at 5:09 pm)Rhythm Wrote: There is something fundamentally wrong about how we determine what an hour of a human life is worth (or an hour of any particular job). For example, sanitation workers get paid jack shit. Apparently we'd rather be up to our eyeballs in our own feces rather than pay them more and some admin somewhere (or even the admin that works in the same field) a little less. How much would I have to pay you to handle my refuse, and biological waste? How much to handle the refuse and waste of an entire city 12 to 14 hours a day 7 days a week? Don't forget the hypos people love to leave in their trashcans or throw in the gutter.

(hint: minimum wage or less in most cases, and just forget about insurance, benefits, or overtime. Unless of course you belong to a union, if that's even an option in whatever state or jurisdiction you live in.)

The union is under attack here in America, and has been slowly dying off. I am union because I feel that people are more important than profits. that is what this UK strike is all about, that is what occupy wallstreet is all about.

If I am working with someone who considers profit more important than people (which is whaat I tried to explain to Adrian), then I consider that person a part of the problem. A potential overseer, who whips people into conforming to the richest peoples demands, all for a slight bit more slave wage than those they whip. These people are WORSE than the rich, in that they willingly take on the mantle of the rich mans shit slinger. Willing to be the enforcer of persecution and slavery in the name of riches he will never taste, but yearns for all their lives. They, and the rich, are the ones who keep deciding that human hourly wage is worth less and less, while the product created by such labor are worth more and more.

Ultimately it is a hypocrisy. My labor is worthless to them, yet the product of my labor is priceless to them that I should take out a life long loan just to buy it. In reality, I made that product, and so did many others. It belongs to us, not to the number bumpers, the paper pushers, and whip swingers. They are the ones who use the false concept of "economy" to force people to work harder for less, especially when percentages of interest are used.

An "investor" has no problem taking the hard work of other people, and renting it over to another group of wage slaves in order to make the greatest percentage possible.

Notice that wages are always subject to discussion, but profit returns have no such subjection.

The employers are the ones who need the objects. Will the electrical company exist if people did not need the product? In this situation who are the leaches? the customers? The ones who actually do the physical work to create the electricity? Or the fucking paper pushers, number creators, investors and such?

There is a leach in the system. they are the ones who shuffle papers back and forth, make back door deals, and use greed that maybe, just maybe, you will be in their leacherous position to insure their power is secure.

As long as people want to be the leach. As long as people want to be "rich", then the system will ALWAYS be corrupt.
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#78
RE: UK STRIKE DAY 30TH NOVEMBER
This is a reply to arsehole.
Let's get a few things straight.
I have never directly accused anybody on this forum of being a racist.
However, from your contributions on the subject down the years I suspect you are a racist in denial.
Far from attacking you I actually just respond to your attacks on me. Check it out and prove me wrong.
Because you know I will respond robustly, you adopt the sly, sneaky tactic of playing to the gallery, usually saying something like " you see how bozo.. "Check it out and prove me wrong.
You remind me of the sly kid at school who, when a fight breaks out, hides behind the rest shouting " go on hit him " whilst avoiding the fists yourself.
I'm not against free speech, far from it, but the law is necessary to protect people from harrassment either verbal or physical.
Now your employment. Once again you disappoint. You fuck around with computers. Big deal. Full of your own importance once again.
Now the strike. You obviously missed my joke in suggesting you come out on strike on Wednesday. I realise striking is anathema to the likes of you.
Fact: when workers take strike action people suffer some inconvenience. If no disruption occurs, what's the point of a strike? A clever fellow like you must see that.
Fact: strike action is never taken lightly. It is an action of last resort. Usually, as in this instance, when MEANINGFUL negotiation isn't happening.
Fact: this action is just 1 day. Not much disruption I suggest.
As regards cost to the economy, I don't recall that being a concern on 29 April when a certain royal wedding stopped the country!
Finally, well not for ever obviously, the issue of the scab.
A scab is a worker who does the job of a striking worker. He is the lowest of the low and deserves whatever ill becomes him for his actions.
It just might affect you someday, you never know.
HuhA man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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#79
RE: UK STRIKE DAY 30TH NOVEMBER
Bozo Wrote:This is a reply to arsehole.

Chill out Smile

[Image: 292268518_036178a4d0.jpg]

"I INVENTED CHILL!" -Jack Frost

Quote:Let's get a few things straight.

* Violet the bisexual woman pretends to be upset.

Quote:I have never directly accused anybody on this forum of being a racist.

Which means all of your racist accusations have been indirect.

[Image: Straight_Line.gif]
^Direct line.

[Image: curves.png]
^Indirect line.

This is the difference between men who go straight for the vagina and those with the decency to make a few stops on the way.

This is a perfect man:

[Image: 77342_curve_line_lg.gif]

Quote:However, from your contributions on the subject down the years I suspect you are a racist in denial.

You believe that adrian is a racer in the nile?

[Image: images.jpg]

[Image: 2011-04-28-12-44-12-5-the-nile-river-is-...f-egy.jpeg]

Quote:Far from attacking you I actually just respond to your attacks on me. Check it out and prove me wrong.

Funnily enough... killing someone in retribution is still killing someone.

Quote:Because you know I will respond robustly, you adopt the sly, sneaky tactic of playing to the gallery, usually saying something like " you see how bozo.. "Check it out and prove me wrong.

Gloria: Don't make me come up there, I'll get the whuppin' on both of y'all!

Quote:You remind me of the sly kid at school who, when a fight breaks out, hides behind the rest shouting " go on hit him " whilst avoiding the fists yourself.

That's a 'sly' kid? No... that's a coward. Cunning people usually manage to avoid fights altogether. Not so cunning if they don't.

Quote:I'm not against free speech, far from it, but the law is necessary to protect people from harrassment either verbal or physical.

Is it? I've never found it needed in my family. Besides... the law isn't going to do shit in Alaska for a transexual woman denied recognition by her parents. Nor have I ever needed it to solve my problems... quite on the contrary: It's always been in my way or making things worse for me. No escaping their damn unadaptable guidelines... because the ones who don't follow those guides tend to not to be accountable should anything go wrong.

If you support 'free' speech... then you support *all* speech legal at all times. If you do not support all speech, at all times, being legal: then you place restriction upon speech and it is not free. Surely I don't have to tell you this.

Quote:Now your employment. Once again you disappoint. You fuck around with computers. Big deal. Full of your own importance once again.

Adrian fucks around computers? Alright... not seeing the problem here. Are computers children or something?

Quote:Now the strike. You obviously missed my joke in suggesting you come out on strike on Wednesday. I realise striking is anathema to the likes of you.

Not a very good joke... I missed it too. Thought you were serious even.

Quote:Fact: when workers take strike action people suffer some inconvenience. If no disruption occurs, what's the point of a strike? A clever fellow like you must see that.

Indeed... which is why strikes should never happen unless they are large enough to cause inconvenience. How else are the workers to be valued?

Quote:Fact: strike action is never taken lightly. It is an action of last resort. Usually, as in this instance, when MEANINGFUL negotiation isn't happening.

That would be revolution... strike is an action of moderate resort. Where the workers tell the rest of society that they demand something be done. Revolution is when the entire society changes as a result of unresolved strikes (on mass scale). ^_^

Quote:Fact: this action is just 1 day. Not much disruption I suggest.

Indeed, and I question the point of a single day strike.

Quote:As regards cost to the economy, I don't recall that being a concern on 29 April when a certain royal wedding stopped the country!
Finally, well not for ever obviously, the issue of the scab.

PR.

^Your king. All hail the mighty media overlord.

Quote:A scab is a worker who does the job of a striking worker. He is the lowest of the low and deserves whatever ill becomes him for his actions.
It just might affect you someday, you never know.

Well I know I can't wait until it does, because that means revolution is close. And I crave excitement Tiger
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
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#80
RE: UK STRIKE DAY 30TH NOVEMBER
Lily, glad to see you having fun at mine and the arsehole's expense!
More at mine, I fear but so be it...whatever rocks your boat!

Just 1 thing in response, yes I grant you my " joke " wasn't that funny ( just wanted to see if he took the bait )and you missed it. But hey, that has been my plea on several occasions.
HuhA man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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