How to select which supernatural to believe?

[The Grand Nudger]

They have shamans and witchdoctors and high priests and popes and imams and mullahs and grand moffs. They can't conceive of a world where other people don't.

As any devout muslim could tell you, if big mo was wrong, that's the whole ballgame. As paul told his followers, if christ isn't risen, this shits worthless. They know how simply and singularly their own beliefs can be immolated and desperately wish that everyone else's thoughts on the matter were as silly and vulnerable as their own.

[R00tKiT]

It's true that the more murderous and repressive an area was at any given time, public expressions of dissenting viewpoints (about anything) were relatively rare.  A weird flex, but true.

Do I need to mention that the majority of the world population today is religious, including in highly developed countries like the U.S. ? If belief in God were solely motivated by fear and repression, you wouldn't have many believers nowadays in these countries.

The corruption of christianity?  You just lost a whole lot of believers, and didn't convince a single atheist.  Well done.  Maybe the biggest reason for a rise in atheism today particularly in the west is a sentiment you can find from the far east thousands of years ago.  There are no gods or afterlives.  This is all for the benefit of the earthly priests.

I am yet to read, at least once in my life, a sound argument for God or the afterlife not existing. What we do know for sure is that if a just God exists, an afterlife definitely exists. You're clearly asserting that there are no gods, the burden of proof is on you now.

Objecting to religion on the grounds that it benefits priests is an appeal to consequences, a fallacy.

Speaking for myself, as one of those sincere atheists, christianity had nothing to do with it, corrupted or otherwise.  I'm one of those guys who never believed, as I've told you many times.  The gods of christianity are discarded as a matter of course because they are gods....gods have not been discarded as a matter of course, because of christianity. 

I got to tell you, I find it really hard to believe, that you were never inclined to believe in some sort of higher power, or that you never wished there is a very powerful being who can redress all the forms of injustice. I can understand if you found christianity repelling or implausible, or if you thought this religion represents God's intentions.

Beliefs like the resurrection and the original sin surely repelled many many people. The idea that a God will sacrifice himself, then raise himself from the dead so that we, his creation, can be saved, has no plausibility whatsoever. The idea that there is a Father, a Son, a Holy Spirit, and that they cannot exist without one another, resembles the weird fantasies people read in Japanese manga, it's obviously contrived and made up- with all due respect, ofc, to any christian who reads this. Nontrinitarianism is clearly more plausible, I just don't understand why it's not the mainstream christian doctrine.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's true that the more murderous and repressive an area was at any given time, public expressions of dissenting viewpoints (about anything) were relatively rare.  A weird flex, but true.

Do I need to mention that the majority of the world population today is religious, including in highly developed countries like the U.S. ? If belief in God were solely motivated by fear and repression, you wouldn't have many believers nowadays in these countries.

Who said anything about belief in god being motivated solely by fear and oppression?  I agreed..as you pointed out, that in very religious societies, dissenting expressions are relatively rare.  That, my cognitively impaired muslim friend, is a product of fear and repression. Think about that the next time you;re hanging out with your fellow islamists. Some of the stuff you think they believe in, with you. and stuff they probably even said they -did- believe..same as you? They're lying. To your face.

I am yet to read, at least once in my life, a sound argument for God or the afterlife not existing. What we do know for sure is that if a just God exists, an afterlife definitely exists. You're clearly asserting that there are no gods, the burden of proof is on you now.

Another absurd non sequitur.  Sure, though, insomuch as I would claim that no gods exist the burden would be on me to have a suitable demonstrate of that. It's been demonstrated to my satisfaction, which might explain why I consider the matter settled, huh?

Objecting to religion on the grounds that it benefits priests is an appeal to consequences, a fallacy.

Then I guess it's a good thing that's not what cavarka did?  

I got to tell you, I find it really hard to believe, that you were never inclined to believe in some sort of higher power, or that you never wished there is a very powerful being who can redress all the forms of injustice. I can understand if you found christianity repelling or implausible, or if you thought this religion represents God's intentions.

Beliefs like the resurrection and the original sin surely repelled many many people. The idea that a God will sacrifice himself, then raise himself from the dead so that we, his creation, can be saved, has no plausibility whatsoever. The idea that there is a Father, a Son, a Holy Spirit, and that they cannot exist without one another, resembles the weird fantasies people read in Japanese manga, it's obviously contrived and made up- with all due respect, ofc, to any christian who reads this. Nontrinitarianism is clearly more plausible, I just don't understand why it's not the mainstream christian doctrine.

Good luck with finding it hard to believe that I was never a theist.  You understand why I find christianity repelling, and you probably could understand why I find islam repelling.  But you're too busy doubting that I am what I am, or that I would know that better than you.  Crank.

[R00tKiT]

Maybe Darwin was a trigger for broader atheism, but Christianity was falling centuries before him. One of the main triggers was Martin Luther who broke up Catholic Church and thus created places for freethinkers to exist and their ideas to spread. So you had thinkers like Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Sir Francis Bacon, and Thomas Hobbes.

What they did was to topple the Aristotelian Great Chain of Being which was an authoritative order of classes of people which is something that the Church imposed in everyday life with God on top and pope below him and then bishops, etc. Which was nonsense and was finally seen as such.

Especially after Newton made his discoveries, a lot of people started looking at God as a passive observer who is behind the "mechanism of the universe" and does not get involved in it anymore. They created deism which then led to atheism.

Martin Luther recognized that mainstream christianity is not tenable, he wanted to solve this problem by challenging the commonly held beliefs, but since christianity is corrupt to the core, this lead to its downfall, like you said.

There is no reliable reference in christianity since its corruption started very early. Islam clearly has the advantage here since the Qur'an is universally considered to have been preserved.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Lol Nonesense 

[The Grand Nudger]

Oh there have been attempts to reform islam too, but since it's corrupt to the core, that caused it's downfall. There's no reliable reference in islam because it was never anything but corrupt. A child raping dog hating warlords claim to the keys of a kingdom.

....well preserved..too..allegedly...for whatever that's worth.

[R00tKiT]

Who said anything about belief in god being motivated solely by fear and oppression?  I agreed..as you pointed out, that in very religious societies, dissenting expressions are relatively rare.  That, my cognitively impaired muslim friend, is a product of fear and repression.  Think about that the next time you;re hanging out with your fellow islamists.  Some of the stuff you think they believe in, with you. and stuff they probably even said they -did- believe..same as you?  They're lying.  To your face.  

I don't really follow. The United States is a fairly religious society and, at the same time, doesn't impose any religion nor persecutes atheists, it seems that basic facts about your own country invalidate your bold claim here.

Another absurd non sequitur.  Sure, though, insomuch as I would claim that no gods exist the burden would be on me to have a suitable demonstrate of hat.  It's been demonstrated to my satisfaction, which might explain why I consider the matter settled, huh?

The criteria you set for your personal satisfaction must be really low, then. And I am not sure why you think I'm committing a non sequitur, talk about cognitive impairment.  

In any case, I think you would literally change world history if the argument you take yourself to have, is sound.

Good luck with finding it hard to believe that I was never a theist.  You understand why I find christianity repelling, and you probably could understand why I find islam repelling.  But you're too busy doubting that I am what I am, or that I would know that better than you.  Crank.

Wishing that some religious claims were true isn't equivalent to being a theist. I am sure you said once that you believed in some sort of afterlife or didn't exclude its possibility, this gives you something in common with theists, at least.

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't really follow. The United States is a fairly religious society and, at the same time, doesn't impose any religion nor persecutes atheists, it seems that basic facts about your own country invalidate your bold claim here.

You don't know much about our history, or even the present reality.  Get this.  Magats.  Trump waiving white supremacists..and just generally the part of america that is religious...prefer you islamists, to us...and they think you should all be dead and buried in the sand (preferably after you kill all the jews and make jesus come home - but that's negotiable, we can always find someone else to nuke isreal).  You know something you should absolutely not say if you ever want to hold public office?  That you're an atheist.    Might not want to tell your fam either, get disowned.  

The criteria you set for your personal satisfaction must be really low, then. And I am not sure why you you think I'm committing a non sequitur, talk about cognitive impairment.  

In any case, I think you would literally change world history if the argument you take yourself to have, is sound.

Low?  Not at all, but it hardly matters, as whatever satisfies me obviously does not satisfy you in the same way even if my standards were much higher (which, btw, they certainly are).

In any case, the non seq is that if a benevolent god existed, then there must be an afterlife.  

Wishing that some religious claims were true isn't equivalent to being a theist. I am sure you said once that you believed in some sort of afterlife or didn't exclude its possibility, this gives you something in common with theists, at least.

All sort of religious claims might be true or wished to be true, but theism, is not a religion.... it's a belief in a personal and intervening god characteristic of some religions.  

Sure, I believe in some sort of afterlife - but none that you would recognize as an afterlife.  I have many things in common with many theists.  I also have a penis.  And? Wrap your head around this so we can start some conversation, any conversation, in a moment of unfiltered understanding and agreement. I have never believed in gods. That's just a fact, a true statement of what is and what has been - about me. You can parse it any way you want, that I'm wrong about it or whatever - it's still a fact about me...and..despite whatever else you may believe or how wrong you think it is, there's no reason to assume that it wasn't a fact, likewise, for many many people through all these long years and generations. Isn't there something that alot of your own peers might believe in that never really took root in you?

[TheJefe817]

In any case, the non seq is that if a benevolent god existed, then there must be an afterlife.  

This is the part that struck me.  I'm not sure how one follows necessarily from the other.  Many religions over the millenia have believed in a god of some sort, but no afterlife, including many following various varieties of Judaism and perhaps even Christianity (at least early forms of such).  Not sure about Islam, as I know very little about it.
Even if it was granted as true, and even if god were proven to exist, the question would still remain of whether or not said afterlife would be something desirable.

[R00tKiT]

You don't know much about our history, or even the present reality. 

Have fun gaslighting people. I don't need to read anything about your exciting history of exterminating native americans, to know that the U.S. is a religious country that endorses freedom of speech. Many famous atheists spent their entire careers in the U.S. and were never persecuted once..?

Yes, I know there are many forms of discrimination against atheists in the U.S., like not being eligible to hold office, but this is not state-level persecution.

Low?  Not at all, but it hardly matters, as whatever satisfies me obviously does not satisfy you in the same way even if my standards were much higher (which, btw, they certainly are).

Yeah, sure, we have differences, I get that. That's why it's good to support your claims with objective arguments, with uncontroversial premises.

In any case, the non seq is that if a benevolent god existed, then there must be an afterlife.  

Then it's time for you to open any introductory book on the philosophy of religion, to understand why this conditional statement is true.


Source: W.L. Rowe (an atheist) - Philosophy of Religion, an Introduction.

All sort of religious claims might be true or wished to be true, but theism, is not a religion.... it's a belief in a personal and intervening god characteristic of some religions.  

Sure, I believe in some sort of afterlife - but none that you would recognize as an afterlife.  I have many things in common with many theists.  I also have a penis.  And?  Wrap your head around this so we can start some conversation, any conversation, in a moment of unfiltered understanding and agreement.  I have never believed in gods.  That's just a fact, a true statement of what is and what has been - about me.  You can parse it any way you want, that I'm wrong about it or whatever - it's still a fact about me...and..despite whatever else you may believe or how wrong you think it is, there's no reason to assume that it wasn't a fact, likewise, for many many people through all these long years and generations.  Isn't there something that alot of your own peers might believe in that never really took root in you?

You're an atheist that has a penis, what an informative presentation of your beliefs and convictions. So, as a theist that has a penis, I kindly ask you to explain why you believe in this afterlife. You can see that I am really trying to find a common ground so that we can finally start a real conversation.