Russia and Ukraine

[Irreligious Atheist]

Well, the West told Ukraine that they weren't allowed to take a peace deal months back. I'm just wondering if the US or NATO is escalating to the point where they're perfectly fine with WW3, or if it's just Zelenskyy who is becoming more of an irrational actor, first by lying to the world and trying to drag them further into the war by accusing Russia of letting their bombs hit Poland, and now going deeper into Russia to attack the nuclear triad. Attacking the nuclear triad raises tensions significantly.

Attacking bases housing airplanes trying to freeze your citizens to death is called "self-defense". I'll wait while you go read up on the idea. There's a lot of literature on it.

Legitimate or not, it makes nuclear warfare far more likely, so I'd say Zelenskyy better quit it and be a good boy.

First you complain that the US and/or NATO is allegedly calling the shots ... now you're wishing you could be calling the shots. So it seems your problem is not that Ukraine is being treated as a puppet, but that they're not doing as you (and Putin) would wish.

And citizens shooting up cops because cops kill black people is seen by them as self defense too, but with something as powerful as the police or Russia or China, you can't just go up and punch them in the face like that. The world doesn't work that way. I understand that attacking Russian bases can be justified morally, in a vaccuum, if you entirely ignore what this means for the world and how much closer this pushes us toward WWIII. Ukraine is winning on the ground, right? What's the issue then? Why the extraordinary escalation? Zelenskyy is dangerous for the world. Russia and Ukraine are both victims. Ukraine is the victim of Russia, and Russia is the victim of NATO, big time, and you can't escalate much further than NATO attacks on the nuclear triad, which these can be called regardless because the West continues to give them weapons. You can bring up morality and self defense all you want, but nukes and world war don't care about your morality. Go punch a police officer or a politician in the face and tell them that you are morally justified, and see what good that does you.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Ukraine attacking the nuclear triad is an awful escalation when you think that the war on the ground is already won by Ukraine.

None of those bombers had nuclear weapons uploaded, so this point of yours is somewhat misleading. Those bombers are multipurpose and have conventional missions as well -- such as launching indiscriminate missile attacks, as they have in both Ukraine and Syria.

Why escalate such a massive degree when you are already winning?

This is not an escalation. This is striking back at the bombers who are trying to freeze Ukrainian civilians to death. Preventing civilian deaths even as one is winning a war is a legitimate use of combat power. By your "logic", the Allies in 1944 should have ceased attacking German U-boats trying to starve out the UK because we were clearly winning.

Yes, your point really is that senseless.

The mob boss having the undercover snitch killed is a crazy conspiracy theory, since it can't 100 % be proven. Must've been a random coincidence, and we should give the mob boss the benefit of the doubt. That's what you sound like. And Jeff Epstein killed himself too.

You admitted having no evidence. Own it.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

No wonder you have so little credibility here.

[Irreligious Atheist]

Some things are done more privately, which gives you plausible deniability

"I have no evidence, therfore i am right"

The creed of every bullshitter and conspiracy nut around. You are just the sad and pathetic end of a fucking long conga line.

The mob boss having the undercover snitch killed is a crazy conspiracy theory, since it can't 100 % be proven. Must've been a random coincidence, and we should give the mob boss the benefit of the doubt. That's what you sound like. And Jeff Epstein killed himself too.

[Irreligious Atheist]

And while IA is criticizing Ukraine for having the temerity to defend itself and its people, here's a reminder of what they're defending against:

Dec 18 (Reuters) - Heating has been fully restored to Kyiv after the latest Russian bombardment that targeted water and power infrastructure, the capital's Mayor Vitali Klitschko said on Sunday.

"The city is restoring all services after the latest shelling," Klitschko said on the Telegram messaging app.

"In particular, the capital's heat supply system was fully restored. All sources of heat supply work normally."

Ukrainian officials said Russia fired more than 70 missiles on Friday in one of its heaviest barrages since the Kremlin's Feb. 24 invasion, forcing emergency blackouts nationwide and cutting access to heat and water.

Temperatures in Kyiv and many places across Ukraine were below freezing on Sunday morning, with forecasts expecting them to dip to minus 6 degrees Celsius (21.2 °F) in the capital by the evening.

Kyiv is by far the largest city in Ukraine with an estimated population of about 3 million, with up to two million more in the Kyiv region.

As of late Saturday, a third of the city remained without power.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/hea...022-12-18/

Criticizing NATO, not the people of Ukraine. I have no problem with the people of Ukraine fighting, and they have fought bravely. Russia is victim too here though. NATO has now attacked their nuclear triad brazenly. NATO is likely at least partly to blame for the start of the war. You realize you can be immoral and a victim at the same time, right? The Taliban were victims of the US invasion, etc. Victim does not equal angel.

[Irreligious Atheist]

Ukraine attacking the nuclear triad is an awful escalation when you think that the war on the ground is already won by Ukraine.

None of those bombers had nuclear weapons uploaded, so this point of yours is somewhat misleading. Those bombers are multipurpose and have conventional missions as well -- such as launching indiscriminate missile attacks, as they have in both Ukraine and Syria.

Why escalate such a massive degree when you are already winning?

This is not an escalation. This is striking back at the bombers who are trying to freeze Ukrainian civilians to death. Preventing civilian deaths even as one is winning a war is a legitimate use of combat power. By your "logic", the Allies in 1944 should have ceased attacking German U-boats trying to starve out the UK because we were clearly winning.

Yes, your point really is that senseless.

The mob boss having the undercover snitch killed is a crazy conspiracy theory, since it can't 100 % be proven. Must've been a random coincidence, and we should give the mob boss the benefit of the doubt. That's what you sound like. And Jeff Epstein killed himself too.

You admitted having no evidence. Own it.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

No wonder you have so little credibility here.

I'm not ducking anything. We've been over this before and have talked about this for many pages months ago. Everything points to the story being true.

https://www.gulf-insider.com/western-all...eace-deal/

And Boris Johnson publicly spoke out against a peace deal many times, so yeah, big conspiracy theory tin foil hattery to suggest that he would tell Zelenskyy at their meeting not to take any peace deal. Maybe you just haven't been following the news the past little while, so I forgive you for the ignorance.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-62998067

And I love Hitchens and have read some of his books, but he died still claiming there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Just sayin.

[Thumpalumpacus]

And Boris Johnson publicly spoke out against a peace deal many times, so yeah, big conspiracy theory tin foil hattery to suggest that he would tell Zelenskyy at their meeting not to take any peace deal. Maybe you just haven't been following the news the past little while, so I forgive you for the ignorance.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-62998067

Boris Johnson doesn't speak for America, nor NATO, for that matter. To what shall we attribute your ignorance of this basic fact?

Also, I never said anything about this being tin-foil conspiracy, so that renders part of your post a straw-man. Was this deliberate, or are you simply unfamiliar with spotting fallacies in your own thinking?

And I love Hitchens and have read some of his books, but he died still claiming there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Just sayin.

You'll struggle in vain trying to find any post I made where I asserted everything he wrote was correct.

That doesn't, however, reduce the validity of his point, which is that without evidence, what you wrote may well be bullshit, and skepticism is entirely warranted. Do you need any other obvious truisms explained for you?

NATO has now attacked their nuclear triad brazenly.

This is rot. NATO forces haven't attacked any Russian asset. Ukrainian forces have.

[The Architect Of Fate]

So AI is back to simply to spam the thread with the same refuted talking points he used last time. This sums up to Ukraine should have blindly trusted Russia would honor any deal they signed or roll over and die. That you Ukraine should fear Nukes Russia is never going to use and may not even be able to use and that somehow Ukraine becoming more aggressive is a sign they aren't winning when all evidence says the opposite. Somehow still  blaming the west for the war because we sit idly back and watch Russia invade one of its neighbors and no doubt lots of Whataboutism and Non-Sequiturs. Same shit different day.

[Thumpalumpacus]

And citizens shooting up cops because cops kill black people is seen by them as self defense too, but with something as powerful as the police or Russia or China, you can't just go up and punch them in the face like that. The world doesn't work that way. I understand that attacking Russian bases can be justified morally, in a vaccuum, if you entirely ignore what this means for the world and how much closer this pushes us toward WWIII. Ukraine is winning on the ground, right? What's the issue then? Why the extraordinary escalation? Zelenskyy is dangerous for the world. Russia and Ukraine are both victims. Ukraine is the victim of Russia, and Russia is the victim of NATO, big time, and you can't escalate much further than NATO attacks on the nuclear triad, which these can be called regardless because the West continues to give them weapons. You can bring up morality and self defense all you want, but nukes and world war don't care about your morality. Go punch a police officer or a politician in the face and tell them that you are morally justified, and see what good that does you.

Once again, for the hard of reasoning: this is not an escalation. This is self-defense against an illegal invasion. Comparing that to attacking a police officer enforcing the law is inapt. And you are continuing to call this a NATO attack when that is obviously bullshit. What's the point of conversing with you when you are being dishonest like this?

You are arguing that the Ukrainian government should literally allow Russia to freeze Ukrainian civilians to death. That is what you are arguing. You're disgusting.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Indeed considering Russia has no right to invade Ukraine nor was there any law it was enforcing. This was simply Putin living out his fantasy of territorial expansion and empire-building and blew up in his face.

[Irreligious Atheist]

And citizens shooting up cops because cops kill black people is seen by them as self defense too, but with something as powerful as the police or Russia or China, you can't just go up and punch them in the face like that. The world doesn't work that way. I understand that attacking Russian bases can be justified morally, in a vaccuum, if you entirely ignore what this means for the world and how much closer this pushes us toward WWIII. Ukraine is winning on the ground, right? What's the issue then? Why the extraordinary escalation? Zelenskyy is dangerous for the world. Russia and Ukraine are both victims. Ukraine is the victim of Russia, and Russia is the victim of NATO, big time, and you can't escalate much further than NATO attacks on the nuclear triad, which these can be called regardless because the West continues to give them weapons. You can bring up morality and self defense all you want, but nukes and world war don't care about your morality. Go punch a police officer or a politician in the face and tell them that you are morally justified, and see what good that does you.

Once again, for the hard of reasoning: this is not an escalation. This is self-defense against an illegal invasion. Comparing that to attacking a police officer enforcing the law is inapt. And you are continuing to call this a NATO attack when that is obviously bullshit. What's the point of conversing with you when you are being dishonest like this?

You are arguing that the Ukrainian government should literally allow Russia to freeze Ukrainian civilians to death. That is what you are arguing. You're disgusting.

Something can be both self defense and an escalation, no? Why are you pretending that it's either one or the other? It is a NATO attack because the war is being funded by NATO countries and NATO is supplying weaponry, and NATO countries didn't draw any red lines about cutting off funding if Ukraine attacked Russia's nuclear triad directly. You don't have to converse with me. You can stop if you'd like, and you're going to be whiny. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.