Looking for referance/book

[AngelaRachnid]

A friend told me that he read somewhere that the early Jews (at there Atme? worshiping stage pre YAWE ...... what ever) were nomadic and possibly bands of lepers with the curable form of leprosy.............which is why they dont like pigs, as pigs also get leprosy (make sense now?)

Anyone have a referance for this?

A

[LEDO]

Leprosy was a generic word for any skin disease, including leprosy. The nomadic band of lepers doesn't make any sense. The Jews did believe in YHWH and it appears from 11th century drawings YHWH was worshipped along side Baal and Ashera. This was an age of god/godess consolidation. Baal was sun, Ashera was Venus, and YHWH would be the lunar diety who was also the supreme deity.

The Jews were Canaanites and basically worshipped as they did, except they held YHWH supreme over all the other gods. Later they would claim there was only one god.

I am not sure if there is a pre-YHWH, unless they worshipped a lunar god by a different name, in which case the god's name was most likely "Sin" of early Babylonian influence. (Abraham/Ur/Haran)

The Jewish religion most likely wasn't formalized until the time of Ezra (4th century BCE) or later. Until that time they would have simply been Canaanites who worshipped YHWH.

From what I can tell the OT Bible stories are MB Amorite versions of EB Akkadian texts, which were then altered to fit a later Judaic culture.

[Anto Kennedy]

It's hard to exactly tell where the Jews originate from, but there are certain avenues to look down.

First do a search on the Hyksos, a Semitic slave race than lived in Egypt 1400-1200BC, also look for the Hapiru, again a slave race in Egypt 1400-1200BC. And really just look at the whole Levant area around that time, and the events of the Armana letters during the invasion of the Sea Peoples. The Kingdom of Israel was founded almost immediately after these events.

BTW Ledo, Baal was not a sun god. Baal was a title applied to many gods, but mostly to Hadad, a thunder god, the god of order.

And YHWH would have both Egyptian and Sumerian origins. There's an Egyptian primordial god with a name like "I am what I will be", but I can't for the life of me remember the name exactly. He represented the primordial chaos before creation though, and wasn't of the lower order of gods.

There is also an Egyptian moon god called Iah, which is probably where ledo gets his claim from, however the Israelites never used Egpytian names (even if they did have Egyptian gods). So the Afro-Asiatic Egpytian Iah is a completely different word from Semitic Hebrew Jah. Jah would most probably come from Yam, a semitc god of the primordial waters of creation.

Or it could be both. The Jews seem to have had no religion of their own, they just took bits and pieces of neighbouring religions and called themselves "God's People".

---

Leprosy was a generic word for any skin disease, including leprosy. The nomadic band of lepers doesn't make any sense. The Jews did believe in YHWH and it appears from 11th century drawings YHWH was worshipped along side Baal and Ashera.

There were no Israelites or Jews in the 11th Century BC. And the first Israelite inscriptions, meantioning King Omri, date to the 9th Century BC.

[LEDO]

It's hard to exactly tell where the Jews originate from, but there are certain avenues to look down.

First do a search on the Hyksos, a Semitic slave race than lived in Egypt 1400-1200BC, also look for the Hapiru, again a slave race in Egypt 1400-1200BC. And really just look at the whole Levant area around that time, and the events of the Armana letters during the invasion of the Sea Peoples. The Kingdom of Israel was founded almost immediately after these events.

BTW Ledo, Baal was not a sun god. Baal was a title applied to many gods, but mostly to Hadad, a thunder god, the god of order.

And YHWH would have both Egyptian and Sumerian origins. There's an Egyptian primordial god with a name like "I am what I will be", but I can't for the life of me remember the name exactly. He represented the primordial chaos before creation though, and wasn't of the lower order of gods.

There is also an Egyptian moon god called Iah, which is probably where ledo gets his claim from, however the Israelites never used Egpytian names (even if they did have Egyptian gods). So the Afro-Asiatic Egpytian Iah is a completely different word from Semitic Hebrew Jah. Jah would most probably come from Yam, a semitc god of the primordial waters of creation.

Or it could be both. The Jews seem to have had no religion of their own, they just took bits and pieces of neighbouring religions and called themselves "God's People".

---

Leprosy was a generic word for any skin disease, including leprosy. The nomadic band of lepers doesn't make any sense. The Jews did believe in YHWH and it appears from 11th century drawings YHWH was worshipped along side Baal and Ashera.

There were no Israelites or Jews in the 11th Century BC. And the first Israelite inscriptions, meantioning King Omri, date to the 9th Century BC.

I never said there were 11th century Jews. I claim there was an 11th century YHWH who was worshipped. My claim comes from a drawing depicting all 3, from an article from BAR magazine and has nothing to do with Egypt. Omri was an Amorite.

The Hyksos were not slaves, they were rulers. While references to Israel exist in 11th century, there is no reference to Jews or a specific Jewish religion. The Hapriu were wondering nomads. No one knows for certain who or what they were, so I won't pretend to and neither should you.The Jews grew out of the existing Canaanites. They did not come from anywhere. They had the same rites and believed in the same gods and spoke the same language without any Egyptian words that one would expect had they really come out of Egypt.

Many gods had the title Bel after their name when they were consolidating the gods. Baal specifically was a solar deity.

[Anto Kennedy]

You did say there were Jews in the 11th Century BC,

The Jews did believe in YHWH and it appears from 11th century drawings YHWH was worshipped along side Baal and Ashera.

If the Jews didn't exist, how could they have worshipped Baal? (Asherah in the 9th Century though, the Queen of Heaven....wheither she was worshipped or merely acknowledged is another thing.)

My claim comes from a drawing

Good point.

Omri was an Amorite.

He was the King of Israel, the first historical king that we have a mention of c. 9th Century BC. He could even be the actual founder of the Kingdom, not enough sources though to be sure.

The Hyksos were not slaves, they were rulers.

Apparantly though they originally came as migrant workers (or the 2nd Millenium BC equivalent). I shouldn't have said slaves, must have been a Freudian slip, ya know with the whole 'Let my people go!' thing swirling around in my subconscious.

I advised AngelaRachnid to study these guys because the ruled the Nile Delta, which is first port of call when searching for the pre-Israelite Hebrew peoples in the Sinai region.

While references to Israel exist in 11th century, there is no reference to Jews or a specific Jewish religion.

No Israel in 11th Century, sorry, only 9th and maybe 10th. And I was using the title Jew to describe Israelites (citizens of the kingdom, how Jews would describe themselves) as opposed to pre-Israelite Hebrews (their tribal affiliation)

The Hapriu were wondering nomads. No one knows for certain who or what they were, so I won't pretend to and neither should you.

I didn't say a word about them. All I said, to AngelaRachnid, who was asking for further information regarding the pre-Israelite Hebraic peoples,

look for the Hapiru

.

I may have called them a slave race, because a modern socio-ecenomic disignation just wouldn't fit. If I where to use modern classifications then I would say the Hapiru were; working class, criminal-underclass, ghettoised-racial underclass etc.

Hapiru was basically another word for "dog" in Egypt. And I'm pretty sure those smelly Hebrews would be included (although along with others). Not only that but the Hapiru led revolts in the Palestine area against Egyptian rule during the invasions of the Sea Peoples. This occured immediately prior to the formation of the Kingdom of Israel, so that's definately worth a mention.

Further detail can be found in the Amarna letters, for example one letter by the Egyptian govenor of Jerusalem to the Pharoah regarding the Habiru who are plundering his lands,

' Behold, neither my father nor my mother has put me in this place. The mighty hand of the king has led me into the house of my father. Why should I practice mischief against the king, the Lord? As long as the king, my lord, lives I will say to the deputy of the king, [my] lo[rd]: `Why do you love the Habiru, and hate the regents?' But therefore am I slandered before the king, my lord. Because I say: `The lands of the king, my lord, are lost,'

hostility has become mighty against me, and so I cannot come to the king, my lord. So, let it seem right to the king to send a garrison, and I will enter and see the two e[yes] of the king, my lord. So long as the king, [my] lor[d] lives, so long as de[puties] go forth, I will say: `The lands of the king are going to ruin.' (But) you do not listen to me. All rgents are lost; there remains not a regent to the king, the lord. Let the king turn his attention to the archers so that archers of the king, my lord, will go forth. No lands of the king remain. The Habiru plunder all lands of the king. If archers are here this year, then the lands of the king, the lord, will remain; but if archers are not here, then the lands of the king, the lord, are lost. [T]o the scribe of the king, my lord, thus saith Abdi-Heba, thy servant: Bring words, plainly, before the king, my lord: [A]ll the lands of the king, my lord, are going to ruin."

Scary stuff, but definately required reading if you're searching for information on the Hebrews.

The Jews grew out of the existing Canaanites.

That's very simplistic, it's like saying the French came out of the existing Germans. Canaan isn't an ethnic term, it refers to the Levant area; modern Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Sinai, up into the borders of Egypt. Many peoples of different ethnicity, culture and political and tribal affiliation lived in that land.

The Canaanites were considered famous merchants from an early time, so obviously they lend themselves to the Phoenician kingdoms which were contemporous with Israel. The Jews even used to use the word Canaanite when referring to merchants.

Thus while Phoenician and Canaanite refer to the same culture, archaeologists and historians commonly refer to the Bronze Age, pre-1200 BCE Levantines as Canaanites and their Iron Age descendants, particularly those living on the coast as Phoenicians.

linky

There is a lot more going for the Phoenician - Canaanite theory, but you're a big boy and you can research for yourself.

They had the same rites and believed in the same gods and spoke the same language without any Egyptian words that one would expect had they really come out of Egypt.

I never said they had came out from Egypt. Although consideringthe area was under Egyptian rule at the time......

You also can't say all Canaanites believed in the same gods, even from city to city religious beliefs changed. Bronze Age religion is a multi-headed hydra, and no two regions had the same set of beliefs or rituals (although certain rituals are near universal throughout the world, for very different reasons than ethnicity)

Many gods had the title Bel after their name when they were consolidating the gods. Baal specifically was a solar deity.

Well, provide evidence, in the mean time, I'll make the case that Ba'al is not a Sun God.

Shapash is the Canaanite Goddess of the Sun.....so that means Baal isn't.

Historically, this confusion was resolved in the nineteenth century as new archaeological evidence indicated multiple gods bearing the title Ba'al and little about them that connected them to the sun. In 1899, the Encyclopædia Biblica article Baal by W. Robertson Smith and George F. Moore states:

That Baal was primarily a sun-god was for a long time almost a dogma among scholars, and is still often repeated. This doctrine is connected with theories of the origin of religion which are now almost universally abandoned. The worship of the heavenly bodies is not the beginning of religion. Moreover, there was not, as this theory assumes, one god Baal, worshipped under different forms and names by the Semitic peoples, but a multitude of local Baals, each the inhabitant of his own place, the protector and benefactor of those who worshipped him there. Even in the astro-theology of the Babylonians the star of Bēl was not the sun: it was the planet Jupiter. There is no intimation in the OT that any of the Canaanite Baals were sun-gods, or that the worship of the sun (Shemesh), of which we have ample evidence, both early and late, was connected with that of the Baals ; in 2 Kings 23:5-11 the cults are treated as distinct.

Looks like your over a century late with that whole sun-god theory.

[LEDO]

The Phonecians were Canaanites. They spoke bascically the same language. YHWH was a lunar god worshipped by more than just Jews. My statement claims he was worshipped. You inferred it was Jews because I mentioned they also worship him. Perhaps that is my bad. I should have made them two sentences.

Baal was used generically for many types of gods. But he became mainly a sun god under the consolidation. Baal, or Babylonian Bel was Jupiter, and the constelltion of the summer solstice Leo. His wife was Ishtar, Venus as Virgo. He was associated with the summer solstice and would become the sun god. Baal-peor was the "lord of the Gap." he was a star that connected Cetus to Pisces. It was associated loosely with the vernal equinox, again a solar reference. Baal was also the constellation of Cepheus. The king of the city-state of Babylon was considered to be his earthly son. In this role Baal was the Sumerian Enlil. Pales was an ass-headed Baal associated with the winter solstice.

Omri was still an Amorite King. This is very important in establishing the origin of the lore of the "Jews."

The gods were basically the same, except they had different names from city to city. The stories altered depending on which city-state was in power. The god of the ruling city-state was the supreme god over all, the rest became gods of a lesser extent. In many ways they were "saints." Adam, Eve, Abraham, Samson, Moses were gods who became "saints" due to various conquests and changes to the religious system. The rites were practised at key times of the year. These differed regionally, but were basically the same.

Babylon had a far greater influence over the Jews than Egypt. Egypt is a red herring for Bible research. Outside of Israel, Iraq under one name or the other is the most named nation. The religion of the Jews comes from the Canaanites. They simply worshipped only one god above the rest. The history from creation to the crowning of Solomon was a combination of cosmic myth and history. It is for the most part an Amorite version of Akkadian history and religion based on the cosmos as commissioned by Sargon. Changes were made to this text (the literay signs are still there, although ignored by scholars) to update it over time as cities died out and new ones were built. The Iron Age monarchy never existed.