Ben Shapiro vs Neil deGrasse Tyson: The WAR Over Transgender Issues

[Silver]

It's the circle of disinformation, from religion to conservative politics.

[Angrboda]

Do you believe that transgendered people determine their gender differently from the way cisgender people determine their gender, or the same way?

I'm not sure if this should be a preface or go after my answer - I don't believe cisgendered people determine their gender anymore than I believe transgendered individuals determine their gender; as we were taught in cultural anthropology gender is the series of expectations, roles, and ritualistic traditions that are expected from an individual based upon societal norms - while we can choose to break the norms we cannot redefine them, at least not as individuals.

I've not given it much thought from the individual perspective, but I would say that there are certain trends amongst the transgendered community - lower rates of educational achievement, higher rates of depression, sleep disorders, bipolar, etc - that would be prime suspects as to why their interpretation of what their role in society is differs from the rest of societies.

Then let me rephrase the question. Do you believe that a transgendered person who feels that the appropriate gender for them is at odds with their biological sex arrives at their intuitions as to which gender role is appropriate for them in the same way as cisgendered people determine which gender role feels appropriate to them? To put it in the words of your previous response, you used the word 'define' which can suggest that identifying as someone transgendered, as someone whose biological sex does not match their experienced gender and sex, that said person is engaged in making a willful choice, rather than, to put it one way, that one's inherent experience of themselves as gendered individuals is "thrust upon them" rather than something they actively construct. In short, what do you mean by the word define? It's possible to say that a homosexual person or a black person define themselves as homosexual or black, but that would seem to be a strained usage. Do transgendered individuals, and cisgendered individuals choose what role is appropriate to them, or are they simply recognizing something innate? In your opinion.

[arewethereyet]

TWM sure has spent a lot of time thinking about trans people.

Weird obsession.

[Silver]

TWM sure has spent a lot of time thinking about trans people.

Weird obsession.

Thinking is the wrong word for what he's doing. What he does is the obvious tactic of redefining something to suit the disinformation he prefers over reality.

[Sheldon]

Why would we withhold that right from one small group, when we grant it to everyone else?

No demographic has a right to define themselves or their place in society.

What a spectacularly stupid and irrelevant claim. I shan't even feign surprise that you failed to answer either question about your previously absurd claims. I ask again then, why should we deny a small minority any rights we afford others. How does it cost anyone anything? (for a trans person to be themselves). 

Why does this bother you, it doesn't bother me at all. Give me one cogent reason that makes any sense.

[Belacqua]

we were taught in cultural anthropology gender is the series of expectations, roles, and ritualistic traditions that are expected from an individual based upon societal norms - while we can choose to break the norms we cannot redefine them, at least not as individuals.

Yes, I think this is clear.

The characteristics that are habitually associated with a gender are culturally determined. So the idea that a woman will have long hair, wear makeup and a dress, speak in a "feminine" voice -- all of this is cultural. There is no intrinsic attachment to femaleness. 

So trans women who choose to take on these characteristics are of course choosing to conform more fully to the culturally-determined set of norms. We can talk about "being my true self" or "becoming who I really am" but there is no "true self" that is entirely free of cultural influence. We are social animals. 

And I think you're correct that individuals can choose whether they want to conform to these norms, but not to determine what the norms are. Since we know now that gender is in fact not determined by anatomy or by surface characteristics, that means it's possible for a woman who was assigned male at birth to look and act exactly like Clint Eastwood. She would still be a woman, even if she has a penis, a week's worth of stubble, and wears cowboy clothes. Yet it appears that most trans people still choose to take on the culturally-determined appearance of the gender they truly are -- trans men cut their hair short and have top surgery, trans women grow their hair long and wear makeup. 

(And people may not be aware of the degree to which our signifiers are culturally determined. You sometimes see someone claim, for example, that because they are free-spirited non-conformists they choose to wear Converse tennis shoes. Never mind that the image of Converse (owned by Nike) as something free spirits wear is a cultural norm. So that the people who want to signal that they ignore cultural norms do so by adopting a particular cultural norm.)

Of course I think that everyone should take on any appearance they want. But this doesn't mean they're operating free of the culture they're a part of.

[Silver]

From a psyche perspective, a culturally inaccurate assumption of what someone else considers me by looking at me is their problem. If they're upset upon learning I'm not straight, they're unacceptance doesn't alter the reality that I'm gay.

[Thumpalumpacus]

From a psyche perspective, a culturally inaccurate assumption of what someone else considers me by looking at me is their problem. If they're upset upon learning I'm not straight, they're unacceptance doesn't alter the reality that I'm gay.

This is the crux of this self-definition "issue" that TWM appeals to. He may or may not accept your self-definition, but he cannot do a damned thing about it except persecute you using the law. And that's a really shitty use of the law, given that here in America -- which he claims to love -- guarantees all, under the 14th Amendment, equal treatment.

There's also the fact that you might be able to change the landscape of my face, as so many bigots would love to do to those they hate, but punches don't change minds. TWM and his ilk are at the point where they must enact violence to enact their views, or abrogate the law that they claim to support.

[Paleophyte]

And who gets to define other people? YOU?

No; my position is that no one has the capability of defining themselves in a society - outside of through their own actions and achievements.

I'm quoting that to the next Christian who whines at me about persecution.

[Paleophyte]

You either accept the science or you reject it. You can't have it both ways. If you reject the science and make up something sciencey-sounding to support your agenda then you're little better than a creationist.

Yes, I think so too. And I think that to Dawkins, he is supporting real science while his opponents in this debate are making up something sciencey-sounding.

Your mind-reading act sucks. Dawkins is an evolutionary biologist and has absolutely no excuse for not understanding the difference between chromosomes and identity.

This is why Coyne, et.al., compare "wokism" to a religion.

Woke is nothing more than an umbrella term used by the far right to lump together everything that they hate. It conveniently covers gender, sexuality, worldview, environment, economics, and political outlook as a whole. It was concocted as the simplest dog whistle possible for people who think in monosyllables because even their spin doctors realized that a "pro-asshole" platform wouldn't fly.

As you know, scientific claims are supposed to be empirical, repeatedly testable, and quantifiable.

Yeah, what a shame that the APA doesn't use empiricism. I can't be arsed to respond to the rest of your shameless misidentification of what is and isn't testable except to say that everything else that you said fails from that single point. Now kindly go find a talented proctologist with a solid enough crowbar to dislodge your head.