Human Nature

[Alan V]

I am against lies told by members of any political party.

Your accusation is bizarre.

"Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."

[Belacqua]

I am against lies told by members of any political party.

Your accusation is bizarre.

"Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."

The Democrats lost the election to Donald Trump.

Perhaps we should ask them to do a little bit better next time.

[Alan V]

"Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."

The Democrats lost the election to Donald Trump.

Perhaps we should ask them to do a little bit better next time.

Which brings us right back to human nature, doesn't it?

Democrats lost not because there wasn't a clear choice between adequate and evil but because human nature makes us susceptible to demagoguery and propaganda.

I very much blame low-information and apathetic voters.  "Fool me once, fool me twice...."  They may well deserve what they get, but they are punishing all of us.

False equivalencies are based on poor information.

[Ivan Denisovich]

The Democrats lost the election to Donald Trump.

Perhaps we should ask them to do a little bit better next time.

Which brings us right back to human nature, doesn't it?

Ah that dastardly human nature always foiling perfect plans whether it comes to communism ("communism was good idea in theory but human nature prevented it from working") or democrats fitness for rule. Certainly it couldn't be democrats own fault - they couldn't be too centrist or too leftist (depends on what one does read). And of course fact that their candidate lost to imbecilic, clownish fascist is another evidence of human nature being at fault not circus like incompetence of both party and candidate. Losing to idiot eloquent as average 3 years old might just mean that candidate sucked donkey balls.

Democrats lost not because there wasn't a clear choice between adequate and evil but because human nature makes us susceptible to demagoguery and propaganda.

Of course. Certainly it couldn't be that people were dissatisfied with democrats. Certainly it can't be that democrats don't do all that much for working class. Wealth inequality, house prices, foreign policy issues... All that means shit, it must be fault of human nature. Well I guess such "explanation" is convenient as it allows to shift blame solely on voters and not on politicians who couldn't manage win with clown barely able to string something approaching coherent sequence together. Losing to trump is like Muhammad Ali in his prime losing to some fat dude who don't know what box is and who also don't have fucking hands.


ETA: If it is human nature at fault then why there is still democracy in the world? Are Americans are naturally deficient and thus prone to vote on fascists? Fascist trash in other countries can't beat propaganda "perfection" of immigrants eating cats? Parts of Europe are settled by naturally superior people who don't buy into demagoguery and propaganda? Surely if it is human nature at fault then at least one of the above must be true.

I very much blame low-information and apathetic voters.  "Fool me once, fool me twice...."  They may well deserve what they get, but they are punishing all of us.

False equivalencies are based on poor information.

I blame politicians. When your candidate can't defeat dude who makes Brezhnev at the end of his life look like Cicero, Caesar and Churchill combined then your candidate suck. It's not voters (or rather potential voters) fault that they refused to eat shit politicians were trying to feed them.

And yes people voting for trump are fucking dumb. Maybe totally unreachable, maybe not. But if opponent of wannabe mussolini can't mobilize enough voters then it only shows how poor that candidate was as having this imbecile for opponent should already give almost guaranteed victory.

[Alan V]

I blame politicians.

There are plenty of other discussions about that aspect of our present problems.

[Ivan Denisovich]

I blame politicians.

There are plenty of other discussions about that.

Sorry for not instantly agreeing with absurd take and looking for more reasonable explanation. Also it may be that you answered before my edit appeared so I will repeat it here:

If it is human nature at fault then why there is still democracy in the world? Are Americans are naturally deficient and thus prone to vote on fascists? Fascist trash in other countries can't beat propaganda "perfection" of immigrants eating cats? Parts of Europe are settled by naturally superior people who don't buy into demagoguery and propaganda? Surely if it is human nature at fault then at least one of the above must be true.

You can't say that above aren't about human nature thus I hope that you will answer.

[Alan V]

If it is human nature at fault then why there is still democracy in the world? Are Americans are naturally deficient and thus prone to vote on fascists? Fascist trash in other countries can't beat propaganda "perfection" of immigrants eating cats? Parts of Europe are settled by naturally superior people who don't buy into demagoguery and propaganda? Surely if it is human nature at fault then at least one of the above must be true.

You can't say that above aren't about human nature thus I hope that you will answer.

Democracies were designed to offset the worst tendencies of human nature by dividing power between various branches of government. The idea was that no one person or group should be given too much power because of the human tendency to abuse power.

The confluence of several trends in the U.S. has undermined Amercans' understanding that for all of its failings and gridlock, democracy is still the best possible system of government. Those trends include not-so-fair-and-balanced news sources, the declining impact of our educational systems, misinformation and disinformation available on the internet, a lack of critical-thinking skills, too much money in politics, taking our institutions for granted because of habituation, and the rise of a demagogue, which was enabled by all of these factors.

All I am saying is that the customer isn't always right, or in this case the voters, especially when they are convinced that demanding the impossible is acceptable. And of course "the impossible" depends on the specific circumstances at the time. What is impossible now may become possible later.

So now, because we elected Trump again, we have to learn the hard way why democracy is so important. My premise is that propaganda and demagoguery (lies) are anti-democratic, yet because of human nature too many of us like to believe in lies. Atheists should certainly be able to understand this point.

[Ivan Denisovich]

If it is human nature at fault then why there is still democracy in the world? Are Americans are naturally deficient and thus prone to vote on fascists? Fascist trash in other countries can't beat propaganda "perfection" of immigrants eating cats? Parts of Europe are settled by naturally superior people who don't buy into demagoguery and propaganda? Surely if it is human nature at fault then at least one of the above must be true.

You can't say that above aren't about human nature thus I hope that you will answer.

Democracies were designed to offset the worst tendencies of human nature by dividing power between various branches of government.  The idea was that no one person or group should be given too much power because of the human tendency to abuse power.  

The confluence of several trends in the U.S. has undermined Amercans' understanding that for all of its failings and gridlock, democracy is still the best possible system of government.  Those trends include not-so-fair-and-balanced news sources, the declining impact of our educational systems, misinformation and disinformation available on the internet, a lack of critical-thinking skills, too much money in politics, taking our institutions for granted because of habituation, and the rise of a demagogue, which was enabled by all of these factors.

All I am saying is that the customer isn't always right, or in this case the voters, especially when they are convinced that demanding the impossible is acceptable.  And of course "the impossible" depends on the specific circumstances at the time.  What is impossible now may become possible later.

So now, because we elected Trump again, we have to learn the hard way why democracy is so important.

[bold mine]

So it turns out that it isn't human nature to blame for trump but confluence of factors that you can name without issue (though whether it is right diagnosis is a question for experts I guess).

Voters aren't always right, obviously. But another thing is just as obvious - whoever couldn't defeat clown like trump was shit candidate for president. It ain't stormfront or some kkk forum so there is no need to pretend that trump is anything but dumb walking failure and to say it plainly a cretin. So I'll repeat myself - if one can't win with absolute idiot then it is not voters who are at fault.

As for impossible - it's perhaps favorite word of neoliberal politicians. Sound safety net, welfare programs, appropriately taxing the wealthy... all these things are "impossible". If politicians can't provide basics such as above mentioned then why should they get someone vote? No one is owed votes, not being fascist it's not reason enough to get a vote. If all politicians have to offer is a status quo that outrageously favors the wealthy and fuck up the rest then people voting for like of trump is nothing that should surprise anyone. When world looks like shit extremists get votes - it was simple as that in '30 and is just as simple now.

My premise is that propaganda and demagoguery (lies) are anti-democratic, yet because of human nature too many of us like to believe in lies. Atheists should certainly be able to understand this point.

Your point is facile as propaganda is merely (per Britannica*) dissemination of information—facts, arguments, rumours, half-truths, or lies—to influence public opinion. It is often conveyed through mass media. Propaganda is not some evil taboo word in service of reactionaries but merely one of means used by gov around the world to influence voters. Propaganda can be anti democratic but it's not inherently so. Similarly demagoguery (per Cambridge dictionary**) is the action of winning support by exciting the emotions of ordinary people rather than by having good or morally right ideas. One can easily excite ordinary people by proposing higher tax for wealthy (and it coincidentally would be both good and morally right). I would agree that world have negative connotations but again there is nothing anti democratic in it. Offering vision to ordinary people is essence of democracy in my view. Proposing reforms in barely understood legalese is on the other hand both foolish and perhaps in collision with democracy as it excludes those who don't have special education from opining on something that will probably touch on their life.

I also contend the claim about human nature making us believe in lies. If it is human nature that makes so then clearly some of us are naturally better and other worse. It's a claim that I see as both absurd and classist. To say it plainly - I think that people voting on trump (or kaczyński in my case) are dumb or desperate in more charitable interpretation of their actions. I'm however no better than them, nor naturally superior. I simply have benefit of better education, cultural capital and not being someone who is really fucked by current system. If it would be human nature at fault then how one group of people would vote "right" and other "wrong" without one group being worse? To me it is nothing more than return to idiotic discourse of the past when nobles were naturally better than commoners, or men naturally better than women.

*https://www.britannica.com/topic/propaganda
**https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/demagoguery

[arewethereyet]

Democracies were designed to offset the worst tendencies of human nature by dividing power between various branches of government.  The idea was that no one person or group should be given too much power because of the human tendency to abuse power.  

The confluence of several trends in the U.S. has undermined Amercans' understanding that for all of its failings and gridlock, democracy is still the best possible system of government.  Those trends include not-so-fair-and-balanced news sources, the declining impact of our educational systems, misinformation and disinformation available on the internet, a lack of critical-thinking skills, too much money in politics, taking our institutions for granted because of habituation, and the rise of a demagogue, which was enabled by all of these factors.

All I am saying is that the customer isn't always right, or in this case the voters, especially when they are convinced that demanding the impossible is acceptable.  And of course "the impossible" depends on the specific circumstances at the time.  What is impossible now may become possible later.

So now, because we elected Trump again, we have to learn the hard way why democracy is so important.

[bold mine]

So it turns out that it isn't human nature to blame for trump but confluence of factors that you can name without issue (though whether it is right diagnosis is a question for experts I guess).

Voters aren't always right, obviously. But another thing is just as obvious - whoever couldn't defeat clown like trump was shit candidate for president. It ain't stormfront or some kkk forum so there is no need to pretend that trump is anything but dumb walking failure and to say it plainly a cretin. So I'll repeat myself - if one can't win with absolute idiot then it is not voters who are at fault.

As for impossible - it's perhaps favorite word of neoliberal politicians. Sound safety net, welfare programs, appropriately taxing the wealthy... all these things are "impossible". If politicians can't provide basics such as above mentioned then why should they get someone vote? No one is owed votes, not being fascist it's not reason enough to get a vote. If all politicians have to offer is a status quo that outrageously favors the wealthy and fuck up the rest then people voting for like of trump is nothing that should surprise anyone. When world looks like shit extremists get votes - it was simple as that in '30 and is just as simple now.

I think a lot of things factored into Trump's second election.  One is that he has riled up the like-minded with all the zeal of a revivalist preacher.  They also were angry that he was beaten by Biden and bought into the whole the election was rigged narrative.

It was not a great move to wait till three months before the election for Biden to step down and Harris to be expected to ramp things up enough to win.  She didn't lose by much but when you take the devout MAGAts and then add the idea of a woman of color as president...it wasn't going to go as well as hoped by those of us who see the man behind the curtain.

There are still people pissed about Obama being elected...a black man was one thing but a woman of color...MAGA forbid.

I think the Dems were caught flat-footed and didn't have a clue how to promote Kamala when that was suddenly a thing.

The Dems need to get their act together if there is any hope of getting power back.  Even then, it will take a long time to attempt to undo the clusterfuck that we are living with and through now.

[Ivan Denisovich]

I think a lot of things factored into Trump's second election.  One is that he has riled up the like-minded with all the zeal of a revivalist preacher.  They also were angry that he was beaten by Biden and bought into the whole the election was rigged narrative.

Of course. Decisions like this can't be reduced to "human nature".

If he did excited his base then he acted like a politician should. It's one of their roles to propose vision that will catch people attention. It's something that many politicians seem to forgot - you have to sell your vision, not rely on it's alleged goodness.

It was not a great move to wait till three months before the election for Biden to step down and Harris to be expected to ramp things up enough to win.  She didn't lose by much but when you take the devout MAGAts and then add the idea of a woman of color as president...it wasn't going to go as well as hoped by those of us who see the man behind the curtain.

There are still people pissed about Obama being elected...a black man was one thing but a woman of color...MAGA forbid.

I think the Dems were caught flat-footed and didn't have a clue how to promote Kamala when that was suddenly a thing.

The Dems need to get their act together if there is any hope of getting power back.  Even then, it will take a long time to attempt to undo the clusterfuck that we are living with and through now.

I agree that changing candidate mid campaign was not well thought. I don't think that Biden should be candidate at all as he was too old and Harris when looked on from afar also wasn't someone that I would care about. As far as I am concerned democrats should show that they care about working class, otherwise they're fucked. Obviously it might not be a correct diagnosis but fighting for better world and losing is far better than merely losing (and not significantly changing how US work I would count as losing).