Where's the justice?

[Godscreated]

You're trying to make human justice and spiritual justice interchangeable. It doesn't work that way, God gave use laws or the reasoning to make laws for justice between humans. God's justice is keeping His word to mankind, faith in Christ is not a ticket to forgiveness, it is the narrow road that leads to forgiveness. There is no indirect blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It's as simple as this faith in Christ and you will be forgiven, no faith in Christ no forgiveness. You can not mix human justice and God's spiritual justice through mercy.

But apparantly you can change the definition of justice to mean whatever you see fit, eh Godschild?

Prove your statement, use the posts I've made and not your deluded made up little boy ideas of what I've said.

[Drich]

Sin is just a concept, friend.

It is only a concept for those who wish to try and rationalize away God. your following statement proves this.

What I deem as a good person is one who is rational, kind, thoughtful at the very least. If people go to hell to be tortured then that is sick. Especially for such pathetic reasons like a lack of belief. I can't imagine any god could possibly be that stupid and irrational. At all.....

I can't believe people actually try to rationalise torture, especially for the most trivial of reasons.
So far you've argued about what's considered 'good' but not about the whole hell and torture thing.

Because you have not asked about hell. I take careful aim to only discuss what you ask about.

I'm assuming you are one of those who'd try to rationalise torture?

why don't yu try rephrasing is such away as to not beg the question and i will share with you what the bible teach about your query.

Question for theists - How would you feel if atheists went to heave as well? Even if they never believed in god?

It's Not my place to feel anything as far as that is concerned. I am only to share what has been shared with me. That said the only way Atheists are allowed into Heaven is if God is intentionally misrepersenting Himself in the bible. If that is the case then all bets are off. That means God isn't who He says He is, and anything can happen.

[Tobie]

Why don't you try thinking for yourself, Drich, instead of blindly believing what the latest preacher told you?

[Ace Otana]

It is only a concept for those who wish to try and rationalize away God. your following statement proves this.

I'm not trying to rationalise away god, it's just I don't need god to explain anything. Simple.

Because you have not asked about hell. I take careful aim to only discuss what you ask about.

I stated that it's sick to try and rationalise torture, and seeing as hell seems to be all about torture.....
I'm stating that you have to be a sick son of a bitch to try and rationalise people being horrifically tortured. I hope you're not silly or sick enough to actually try and rationalise hell.

That said the only way Atheists are allowed into Heaven is if God is intentionally misrepersenting Himself in the bible. If that is the case then all bets are off. That means God isn't who He says He is, and anything can happen.

And what if the bible was wrong? Perhaps god hasn't misrepresented himself but his followers misrepresented him. Prepared to consider that possibility? Perhaps god does allow atheists into heaven, and that belief or lack of does not determine who gets to go to heaven. Perhaps you've got it completely wrong?

Ever tried to think for yo.......never mind.

[Reforged]

But apparantly you can change the definition of justice to mean whatever you see fit, eh Godschild?

Prove your statement, use the posts I've made and not your deluded made up little boy ideas of what I've said.

Sure. Read through your whole statement, I know this will take you a while as your reading is likely at "Dr. Seuss" level so don't worry, I'll wait...
...
...
...
Done? Awesome. Now if you'd be so kind I'd like you to direct me to an example of spiritual justice you can prove happened and have evidence for so that we can establish this isn't a bullshit term you can pretty much define how you like.
Bible quotes will get you laughed at, just sayin'. :-)

[Drich]

I'm not trying to rationalise away god, it's just I don't need god to explain anything. Simple.

Tomato/tomato (I guess the saying really doesn't work if you spell it out)
Eitherway one does not need God to paint over the unexplained. God is the God of the natural known universe. Which means He is the God that science is just now beginning to understand and desperately trying to explain what He has done.
(Meaning it is foolish to still think the religious can not assimilate the whole offering of science into their faith)

I stated that it's sick to try and rationalize torture, and seeing as hell seems to be all about torture.....

Well what if I told you it is not all about torture?

I'm stating that you have to be a sick son of a bitch to try and rationalize people being horrifically tortured.

Do you have actual scripture to back this up? That people are being horrifically and intentionally tortured?

I hope you're not silly or sick enough to actually try and rationalize hell.

Maybe not as you understand hell to be, but it does serve a purpose.

And what if the bible was wrong?

Then again all bets are off, and God is as sadistic as you have painted Him to be, if He indeed holds us to an unknown standard.

Perhaps god hasn't misrepresented himself but his followers misrepresented him. Prepared to consider that possibility?

I Considered that long before I became a believer.

Perhaps god does allow atheists into heaven, and that belief or lack of does not determine who gets to go to heaven. Perhaps you've got it completely wrong?

Then why would you want to be with this "god?" If He can not be trusted to represent himself in this life what makes you think he has accurately represented the next life? Why set us up to fail in this life just to provide a broken promise of what the next life will offer?

Is this what you hang you eternal existence on? A broken idea of God who will not justly punish or reward anyone? A god who's word is about as strong as his ability to protect it from those who have their own idea about what god should be? To me in your recreation of God you have placed yourself in a position above your almighty to trump any aspect of god that does not fit your own personal version of morality. That way if a concept like "hell" comes up you can side step your god and self righteously judge all you refuse to look at any deeper than what you currently understand to be true.

Ever tried to think for yo.......never mind.

Oh, the irony you can not see. For it is you who have asked the same old tired questions that have been asked for thousands of years, yet present them as if you were the first. Just because you came to these questions yourself does not mean you have not be conditioned to ask them. I have answered "your" questions a least 2 to 3 times a month, every month for the last 4 years... Yet I am the one.......never mind.

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Why don't you try thinking for yourself, Drich, instead of blindly believing what the latest preacher told you?

seriously tobe? You and I have gone around a few times and this is what you come at me with? When did any thing I have presented here smell like it was freshly dropped from a sunday morning service? Why would you believe this message was any different?

If you do not believe this message (Or any message) is mine then challenge it in any way and lets see how deep the rabbit hole goes.

[Tobie]

seriously tobe? You and I have gone around a few times and this is what you come at me with? When did any thing I have presented here smell like it was freshly dropped from a sunday morning service? Why would you believe this message was any different?

If you do not believe this message (Or any message) is mine then challenge it in any way and lets see how deep the rabbit hole goes.

You've made numerous posts like the following:

It's Not my place to feel anything as far as that is concerned. I am only to share what has been shared with me.

This seems like you are not doing your own thinking to me. Sure, you could blindly follow what you interpret the bible to say, but aren't you tempted to pull back the curtain and see what's out in the real world?

[Ace Otana]

God is the God of the natural known universe. Which means He is the God that science is just now beginning to understand and desperately trying to explain what He has done.

This is what I see -

Thor/Odin/FSM is the Thor/Odin/FSM of the natural known universe. Which means He is the Thor/Odin/FSM that science is just now beginning to understand and desperately trying to explain what He has done.

You can say Santa Claus if you want? The question is - is there a god or isn't there? Can you prove that there is? You can say god is this or that but changes nothing.

Well what if I told you it is not all about torture?

What is it about?

Do you have actual scripture to back this up? That people are being horrifically and intentionally tortured?

I'm sure a lake of fire is mentioned somewhere. Or is that inaccurate?

Maybe not as you understand hell to be, but it does serve a purpose.

Ok, I'll bite. What is hell, what happens there and what is it's purpose?

Then again all bets are off, and God is as sadistic as you have painted Him to be, if He indeed holds us to an unknown standard.

Why? Your god as he sounds already seems sadistic. What if he wasn't? What if he really did allow both theist and atheist in heaven? These what if's can go on forever, but you get my point?

Then why would you want to be with this "god?" If He can not be trusted to represent himself in this life what makes you think he has accurately represented the next life?

Don't think I'd want to be with any god really. Also I can't say I could trust a god who likes to have his ego stroked and is so easily offended by a mere lack of belief. Seems a bit of a jerk really.

I have answered "your" questions a least 2 to 3 times a month, every month for the last 4 years... Yet I am the one.......never mind.

Aww....really? Sorry but I've got to tell you something. I've been keeping this quiet but perhaps you've noticed. Now I went to be seen by a doctor some while ago and as it turns out I'm suffering from long term

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I DON'T GIVE A FUCK.

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[Drich]

[quote='Tobie' pid='288915' dateline='1337631691']
[quote=Drich]seriously tobe? You and I have gone around a few times and this is what you come at me with? When did any thing I have presented here smell like it was freshly dropped from a sunday morning service? Why would you believe this message was any different?

If you do not believe this message (Or any message) is mine then challenge it in any way and lets see how deep the rabbit hole goes.[/quote]

You've made numerous posts like the following:

[quote]It's Not my place to feel anything as far as that is concerned. I am only to share what has been shared with me.[/quote]

This seems like you are not doing your own thinking to me. Sure, you could blindly follow what you interpret the bible to say, but aren't you tempted to pull back the curtain and see what's out in the real world?
[/quote]

What has been "shared with me" is what I have learn from the bible. "Shared with me" pertains to the Holy Spirit opening up a wealth of wisdom and biblical knoweledge to me, as I should not have graduated high school and am constantly reminded by you good people of my short commings in spelling and grammer. I had no hope of going to any kind of secondary school not even a seminary, so everything I know of the bible has been shared or given to me by God.

As far as living in your world what makes you think I did not spend 1/2 of my life living apart from God? My Mother was a buddhist and my Father was a atheist, and that is how I grew up. I did not earnestly seek God out till i was well into my 20's.

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[quote='Ace Otana' pid='288926' dateline='1337632773']
[quote]The question is - is there a god or isn't there? [/quote]Yes there is.

[quote]Can you prove that there is?[/quote]No, but I do not have to. For God tell us He will provide us with all the proof we need if we simple ask, seek and knock for it as He has told us to do.

[quote] You can say god is this or that but changes nothing.[/quote]
What if God said it to you? What would change then?

[quote]What is it about?[/quote]Eternal separation. (which once you have had your eyes opened will indeed cause a type of pain, Regret and despair)

[quote]I'm sure a lake of fire is mentioned somewhere. Or is that inaccurate?[/quote]The only time "Lake of Fire" is mentioned in scripture is in The book of Revelations. In that book that term is mentioned 4 times. If you are not aware the book of Revelations is a book of prophesy and as such uses imagery to paint a picture of reality consistent with the prophet's understanding of what he has been given over to see. In otherwords the Prophet (john of patmos in this case) is trying to describe what He has seen. The best he can do is "Lake of Fire." Christ calls it "the pit, the Void, Great darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth." In all accounts Christ himself used the word or understanding of Hell (which can mean a consuming fire) overwhelmingly describes it as an eternal separation from God. However to you that does not mean It would not look like a Great firey lake.

[quote]Ok, I'll bite. What is hell, what happens there and what is it's purpose?[/quote]Hell is eternal separation from God. Passages like Mt 10:28 tell us is a place where the body and soul is consumed/destroyed by fire.

[quote]Why? Your god as he sounds already seems sadistic.[/quote]
The definition of sadism i am using here means to take pleasure from extreme cruelty. By definition God is not sadistic because of the extreme lengths He went to procure your atonement, to which all you have to do is accept it. Sadism would have God give the illusion of atonement or "heaven" by some standard and then take it away simply to watch those who have strive to obtain that goal suffer. This is not what is happening here.

[quote]What if he wasn't? What if he really did allow both theist and atheist in heaven? [/quote]Then Again He would not be the God of the bible and all bets would be off. Meaning Heaven/Hell are also up in the air. Because "IF" God is not who He said He was then what makes you think Heaven or Hell for that matter is what He said it would be?

Which is why I asked Why would you want to spend an eternity with that type of being anyway?

[quote]Don't think I'd want to be with any god really. Also I can't say I could trust a god who likes to have his ego stroked and is so easily offended by a mere lack of belief. Seems a bit of a jerk really.[/quote]Then maybe you should take a more indepth and not such an overly simplified view of what Christianity is all about.

[Ace Otana]

No, but I do not have to. For God tell us He will provide us with all the proof we need if we simple ask, seek and knock for it as He has told us to do.

Yeah we've been through this before. You have to believe in order to believe. Presuppose god's existence nonsense. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. I prefer to stick to logical procedures, and Occam's razer of course.

What if God said it to you? What would change then?

I'll have to find out if it was god or I'm simply hallucinating. I'll stick to simple explanations till there is evidence for the complex. Occam's razer.

Eternal separation. (which once you have had your eyes opened will indeed cause a type of pain, Regret and despair)

Separation from an incompetent fool sounds rather nice to be honest.

If you are not aware the book of Revelations is a book of prophesy and as such uses imagery to paint a picture of reality consistent with the prophet's understanding of what he has been given over to see. In otherwords the Prophet (john of patmos in this case) is trying to describe what He has seen.

Seems more like he's painting a picture/describing of what he saw in his over active imagination. I'll apply Occam's razer and use the simpler explanation and using known entities and conclude that he is delusional.

Hell is eternal separation from God. Passages like Mt 10:28 tell us is a place where the body and soul is consumed/destroyed by fire.

Still think your god's a prick.

By definition God is not sadistic because of the extreme lengths He went to procure your atonement, to which all you have to do is accept it.

Great lenghts? I thought god was all powerful? Also if his plan isn't working so well and that more and more have considered the whole religious thing to be complete nonsense, perhaps he didn't think things through? A sign of incompetence perhaps? Surely being all knowing he'd know of a better way to deal with things?

Because "IF" God is not who He said He was then what makes you think Heaven or Hell for that matter is what He said it would be?

Why would you? Oh wait, dah bubble says so!
Also the question is irrelevant to me. I don't believe in god.

Which is why I asked Why would you want to spend an eternity with that type of being anyway?

Didn't say I did. The question is meaningless. I simply stated that "what if god did allow both theists and atheists? That's all. Just curious of theist's response. Apparently you seem to dislike the idea, not sure why.

Then maybe you should take a more indepth and not such an overly simplified view of what Christianity is all about.

I'm not expected to do anything. I'm just an atheist. Atheist which means - Without theism. That's all. Theist's claim there is a god and some afterlife, I lack that belief. I reject it. Haven't rejected some god because I don't believe there is a god to reject. Just the claim that he/it exists. That's it.