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Another argument for existence of God!
May 23, 2012 at 9:22 am
Hello,
I was given an argument for existence of God. The statement goes something like this.
"Only randomness can be there without intelligence, consciousness but universe is not in a random design nor it is working randomly. Therefore it requires an intelligent designer"
What type of argument is this, and how can I refute it?
As far as I can see, its another Teleological argument. What's a good counter for this one?
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RE: Another argument for existence of God!
May 23, 2012 at 9:25 am
(This post was last modified: May 23, 2012 at 9:48 am by Reforged.)
Definition of random in the Oxford English Dictionairy:
Having no definite aim or purpose; not sent or guided in a particular direction; made, done, occurring, etc., without method or conscious choice; haphazard."
That claim requires hard evidence conciousnous started with a conscious choice.
Also, what we have seen of the universe indicates otherwise. What is the purpose of lifeless planets? Of stars besides our sun? If there is no purpose to them wouldn't that signify their existance as being random? For that matter, what is our purpose?
Anyone who claims the universe is ordered as an arguement for creationism first has to have an indepth knowledge of the *entire* universe. They would then have to explain and prove the purpose of everything that has ever existed in it, including randomness itself as that too would have been created by God in this hypothesis. If randomness existed without God then that would mean it does not require him to exist... so why would anything? If they can't do either of these things then their arguement has no basis on which to continue...
:-)
"That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die."
- Abdul Alhazred.
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RE: Another argument for existence of God!
May 23, 2012 at 9:31 am
(May 23, 2012 at 9:22 am)jain.rahul Wrote: What type of argument is this, and how can I refute it?
Not an argument so no refutation is necessary. It is an opinion and a stupid one.
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RE: Another argument for existence of God!
May 23, 2012 at 9:46 am
(This post was last modified: May 23, 2012 at 9:47 am by NoMoreFaith.)
(May 23, 2012 at 9:22 am)jain.rahul Wrote: "Only randomness can be there without intelligence"
Declaration 1 is false which makes the argument irrelevant.
We observe order in things without intelligence ALL the time. Drop a stone in water and watch ordered concentric circles, roll a ball down a hill, and measure the acceleration.
If you argue that these things are ordered only because of God, then you make the a priori assumption he exists, in order to prove he exists.
The argument would then read,
"Order only exists because of God, therefore God exists".
Obviously stupid because you can make an declaration about anything for equal validity.
"Order only exists because of my invisible unicorn, therefore my invisible unicorn exists."
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
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RE: Another argument for existence of God!
May 23, 2012 at 9:51 am
(This post was last modified: May 23, 2012 at 9:53 am by Ben Davis.)
(May 23, 2012 at 9:22 am)jain.rahul Wrote: Hello,
I was given an argument for existence of God. The statement goes something like this.
"Only randomness can be there without intelligence, consciousness but universe is not in a random design nor it is working randomly. Therefore it requires an intelligent designer"
What type of argument is this, and how can I refute it?
As far as I can see, its another Teleological argument. What's a good counter for this one?
Without evidence, this is mere speculation and not even coherent; it certainly wouldn't qualify as a working hypothesis. Definitions & qualifications are needed for the following statements:
1. only randomness can be there without intelligence (and/or) consciousness
2. (the) universe is not in a random design
3. (the universe is not) working randomly
4. (there is) an intelligent designer
...before the final statement can even pretend to hold validity as an argument.
Basically, you're being bullshitted.
Sum ergo sum
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RE: Another argument for existence of God!
May 23, 2012 at 10:13 am
The argument falls apart on the claims that the universe is not working at random, and that if it's not working at random, there HAS to be an intelligence running it. Matter interacts with other matter in certain ways, but there's no evidence that it's not just the natural way the universe works instead of a god controlling everything. Furthermore, you can't make the leap from "there has to be an intelligence running the universe" to "the intelligence running the universe is God almighty so we need to worship Jesus, read the bible, and persecute gays" but that's usually where it ends up.
Christian apologetics is the art of rolling a dog turd in sugar and selling it as a donut.
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RE: Another argument for existence of God!
May 23, 2012 at 11:40 am
That argument implodes in on itself.
If only randomness can exist without a creator, then what created the creator? Is the creator randomness?
Also, the Universe is not orderly. Sure, you could find reasons to support an orderly Universe, but you could find far more evidence pointing towards chaos. There is nothing orderly about a blackhole. There is nothing orderly about quantum mechanics. If the Universe was so orderly, I think we would have a unified theory of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics by now.
The "fine-tuning" and "watch-maker" analogies are thoroughly debunked already.
You should grant their premise and pose the question:
What is the justification for your premise leading to a SINGLE creator?
"We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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RE: Another argument for existence of God!
May 23, 2012 at 11:54 am
There is no argument for the existence of God, only a desire of a few.
I respect you too much to believe that you could possibly hold those ridiculous beliefs. - Richard Dawkins, 2012
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RE: Another argument for existence of God!
May 23, 2012 at 12:26 pm
You cannot refute it without knowledge of the universe. When you study more on the position of galaxies and their current directions, you will see they are more random.
But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin.
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RE: Another argument for existence of God!
May 23, 2012 at 1:59 pm
(May 23, 2012 at 12:26 pm)Polaris Wrote: You cannot refute it without knowledge of the universe. When you study more on the position of galaxies and their current directions, you will see they are more random.
Wait... Without knowledge? Are you asking for evidence?
Well fuck me sideways with a barge pole...
I respect you too much to believe that you could possibly hold those ridiculous beliefs. - Richard Dawkins, 2012
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