Obama and Guantanamo Bay

[Shell B]

Maybe you're not talking about them. You can't decide what I was talking about just because it suits you more. I have brought it up several times and you have completely fucking ignored it. Look at the dates. It is currently 2012. Roughly 1/7 of the prison population that was initially there is still there as of 2012.

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This is quality drama and made the thread lively. I feel left out. Somebody flame me.

Oh my god! You just said everyone in the world is a drama queen and you hate them. That is never right. Ever.

Flamey enough for you?

[Cyberman]

What does it matter if they have prosthetics? Honest question.

That's just what I thought. Maybe so they'd have a leg to stand on?

Actually it was the other figures, notably the number of current detainess versus the total number of convictions that I hoped might be more useful. Please tell me if I'm wrong (again I'm genuinely not trying to be combative or anything.)

[Annik]

Maybe you're not talking about them. You can't decide what I was talking about just because it suits you more. I have brought it up several times and you have completely fucking ignored it. Look at the dates. It is currently 2012. Roughly 1/7 of the prison population that was initially there is still there as of 2012.

There is no reasoning with you, is there? You'll always be right any everyone will always be wrong. So, I'm done with this. I've shown the the real statistics, which do not support "many" or "most" being guilty of anything. In fact, that so many have gone free should really be more eye-opening to you.

[Shell B]

Those that are not there anymore have gone free! There is reasoning with me. You just don't know how to be reasonable. You can't cite prisoners that are no longer there in a discussion about the current state of Guantanamo Bay. Yes, everyone will always be wrong. You realize I am part of "everyone," right? Absolutist.

[Tiberius]

We are not talking about those who have already been tried and found guilty.

Yes we are. We're talking about all of the inmates, past and present. Yes, a lot are released, but that doesn't mean that many aren't guilty. There are a number of released inmates that have gone back to terrorism. Indeed, one of them is quoted as saying he was "going back to the fight". The Pentagon even reported that 61 ex-detainees had returned to terrorism: http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/01/1...JX20090113

[Creed of Heresy]

Gee I wonder why. Get imprisoned without a trial and subjected to torture every day while the Red Cross is not allowed to ensure you are being treated even slightly humanely and regardless of whether or not you were a terrorist before you're probably going to end up becoming one the moment you get out.

Sorry. I had to say something. The magnetic pull of drama...I...can't...FIGHT IT...AAAAUGH-

[Shell B]

Being mistreated by another country is an excuse to be a terrorist in your own country?

The point is here that there are two groups of bad guys. There are the people who abused prisoners and the guilty prisoners themselves. You can't pretend there is only one bad side when there are clearly two. I guess that is something people will have to learn on their own. I'm sure they would sing a different tune if they were victims of the guilty prisoners.

[Ashendant]

Being mistreated by another country is an excuse to be a terrorist in your own country?

The point is here that there are two groups of bad guys. There are the people who abused prisoners and the guilty prisoners themselves. You can't pretend there is only one bad side when there are clearly two. I guess that is something people will have to learn on their own. I'm sure they would sing a different tune if they were victims of the guilty prisoners.

And two bads don't make a right

[Shell B]

No one said they did. Well, at least I did not. Responsibility on our behalf and securing terrorists could make it better, though -- a lot better.

[Creed of Heresy]

Being mistreated by another country is an excuse to be a terrorist in your own country?

The point is here that there are two groups of bad guys. There are the people who abused prisoners and the guilty prisoners themselves. You can't pretend there is only one bad side when there are clearly two. I guess that is something people will have to learn on their own. I'm sure they would sing a different tune if they were victims of the guilty prisoners.

An excuse? No, it isn't. Vengeance when directed at those not responsible is NEVER excusable. I don't say these individuals are vindicated at all, believe me. I'm just saying that I can see why they would be angry, and why they would join these causes. But understanding doesn't require sympathy. My sympathy is voided the moment they strike at someone who was not responsible for their situation or directly aided a situation that resulted in individuals not responsible being harmed, no matter how many hurdles they may jump through trying to justify it by some notion of 'complicit by inaction' or the usual garbage the terrorists always try to use. Eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

The issue with Guantanamo is...well, it's complex. Like so many things it's not black and white. Me...I don't really support it, for a very simple reason; the destruction of principle. This country's justice system was designed so that you are innocent until proven guilty, so as to prevent the abuse of power by the government.

Benjamin Franklin said it best: Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Basically...I would prefer the bad guy getting away to me becoming him. And alas, Guantanamo is basically us becoming the bad guy.

But, that's just my two cents, really.