Can we have an honest, balanced, down to earth discussion about feminism?

[TaraJo]

Shellerby, you just reminded me of how much not fishing much this summer hurt. Thanks for that

I used to go to a GLBT organization in the local college. Too many feminazis, and too many people saying the shittiest things about (straight) men. Couldn't stand it, so I left. Luckily for me, a much smaller trans-centric group was formed, and I no longer had to visit a massively crowded room full of assholes to feel like I had a social life of any sort

Oh, God, you have no idea how nice it is to finally meet other trans people who aren't all caught up in the feminist extremism! I was part of a few online groups that had started out fun enough, but they started moving more and more feminist, starting out fairly moderate. I can handle moderate feminism; I can talk about it and discuss it and everything. Then it kept moving and evolving and getting more and more extreme. At this point, I'm dealing with people who will openly say they hate men just for the sake of being men and I think I've reached the point where I just want to move on with my life. I don't need trans support anymore and I don't want to be associated with extremists like that. As of a couple of days ago, I finally up and ditched them and here I am, trying to move on with my life.

I also like a lot of what Shelly is saying here. While there are social influences on what we do and why we do it, ultimately, responsibility falls on the individual who makes those choices. If a woman laments that not enough women are in male dominated fields, she has a legitimate complaint. If she's going to forego science or math degrees to get a degree in women's studies so she can make that complaint, I'm allowed to point out how she's contributing to the problem. But if you're going to see lose social standards that suck and still abide by them, you're the one giving those social standards the power. For example, if a woman doesn't get into automotive repair because she thinks nobody will take her seriously as a mechanic, what she probably doesn't realize is that people don't take women seriously as mechanics because they don't see women mechanics and she would be contributing to that invisiblity.

[Violet]

Oh, God, you have no idea how nice it is to finally meet other trans people who aren't all caught up in the feminist extremism!

Don't worry, I'm sure I'll find other ways to irritate you. ^_^ I didn't know it was such a problem, isn't where I live (that isn't to say none of it is here, just it's not contagious).

I was part of a few online groups that had started out fun enough, but they started moving more and more feminist, starting out fairly moderate. I can handle moderate feminism; I can talk about it and discuss it and everything. Then it kept moving and evolving and getting more and more extreme. At this point, I'm dealing with people who will openly say they hate men just for the sake of being men and I think I've reached the point where I just want to move on with my life.

I once tried to get into several trans groups online... just couldn't get interested with them after having been here so long

Dunno why anyone would hate all men, for any reason... if I was one to brand a whole group on a few individuals, I'd probably hate men. And women. And dogs. And artists. And hookers. And lollipops.

I don't need trans support anymore and I don't want to be associated with extremists like that. As of a couple of days ago, I finally up and ditched them and here I am, trying to move on with my life.

I'm sorry to hear that... but I'm gladdened that you feel secure enough to go forth without trans-community support and resources.

Wish the interesting people wouldn't leave the community, but that's what friendship is for, silly me

[Whateverist]

I like equality that deals with issues that hurt both men and women. People like to say men aren't discriminated against, but if you watch what happens to guys who try to be nurses or secretaries or boys who try to baby sit to earn money in high school or, really, if you want to be a male that has anything to do with children, you see a different story.

The feminism I seem to be encountering the most still sees this problem, but instead says "This problem with men is only there because women have this other problem even worse." Personally, I find that incredibly dismissive of real concerns by real men.

I've experienced the same thing. There is a lot of naivete among some women about where patterns of sexism come from and who is responsible for them. I took a women in film class in a women's studies department in college out of a long time interest in the subject. It was interesting enough but I was so surprised when the professor made the comment, after a war film, that perhaps it was time to give a woman a chance. I told her if power was the kind of thing that was awarded to nice people we might also try giving it to men like Mahatma Ghandi. Of course power isn't the sort of thing that is given at all; it's taken.

We're all born and brought up in a culture where we wonder why women, in general, are so fem and men are so butch. That doesn't mean that men created this culture. Everyone creates the culture over great periods of time. No one thought it up or foisted it on anyone else. We just all struggle to find balance within it, whatever the perceived advantages and disadvantages. I'm sympathetic toward women but no way will I feel guilty or responsible for the situation.

[Waratah]

I think you should be able to discuss anything on an atheist forum and have a good discussion.
I think we have come a long way where Germaine Greer started out. It was frowned upon a married women working. A married women was not allowed to have her own bank account.
I think the most important thing is being able to have a choice. It really sucks when you are restricted because of your sex. I have had very unpleasent experiences with family court in Australia, which I believe me being male had a huge affect. Ever since I have been interested in gender equality. I can remember finding out a workplace I used to work at had a committee called 'Equality in the Workplace'. I asked why there was no males on the committee, they were surprised by my enquiry and invited me to join. Which I did with enthusiasm, but was continually left out of meetings or meetings would be changed without being informed. So to me it was not Equality in the Workplace but Feminism in the Workplace.

[Kayenneh]

There are some genuine concerns regarding how women are treated in different societies and cultures and those problems need to be adressed and rectified. However, when women get so obsessed with who's got what parts between your legs, and judge solely on gender, they become the very thing they speak against. Their hypocrisy is astounding, they don't want to be marginalized for being female, but oh how they seem justified in judging someone for being male. Their anger clouds what little sensibility they have left and they take it out on anything and anyone, whether the recipient deserves it or not. The sheer absurdity of thinking that a gender (read: two x-chomosomes) can be superior is ridiculous.

What we need and what they should understand that being a certain gender brings some limitations by default, but it doesn't make either one superior, an obvious example is that men aren't able to give birth. The focus should be on making the most of the individual regardless of gender. Because let's face it, it is with gender as with sexuality, it's not a black and white thing, some are definitely female or male, others are somewhere in the middle.

I have no love for femi-nazis, I think they are despicable and arrogant thinking that they speak for all who consider themselves female. I usually don't wish people misfortune, but upon these idiots I wish anal leakage.

[Zen Badger]

I work in a big mechanical workshop where we rebuild monster diesel engines for the mining industry here in Western Oz.

There must be a good 7 or 8 girls/women on the tools.(some are apprentices)

And no-one treats them any differently.

Not one of them is a feminist or a femnazi, but then again they have nothing they need to prove.

[KichigaiNeko]

I work in a big mechanical workshop where we rebuild monster diesel engines for the mining industry here in Western Oz.

There must be a good 7 or 8 girls/women on the tools.(some are apprentices)

And no-one treats them any differently.

Not one of them is a feminist or a femnazi, but then again they have nothing they need to prove.

One or two are hot-looking.

[Creed of Heresy]

Feminism...

You know, I ruminate on this every so often, and I've observed something interesting; groups that are unaccepted are eventually accepted via rational, level-headed pursuits of equality and justice for themselves. We take for example black Americans [no. I'm not saying African-American. Nobody calls me Nordo-Franko-Germanic-American, and all humanity ultimately came from Africa anyway so that would be far too broad; I refer only to approximation of skin-tone, and I place no derogatory undertone to the word] who lived in segregation from the white American population. Were they outspoken? Did they protest? Sure. But it was the cool-headed individuals who ultimately brought segregation down; women like Rosa Parks who nonviolently protested by simply sitting in a section of the bus and refused to move, men like Martin Luther King, Jr. who promoted peace and harmony and spoke of the truth that we are all human beings and should all be accepted equally without discrimination. We think of the Civil Rights Movement and we think of those kinds of individuals with respect. But then you hear about the "hardcore," in-your-face groups like the Black Panthers and we snigger, roll our eyes, or generally don't put as much respect on them as we did for those who were much more passive...because it was the ones who were passive, not aggressive, in their pursuits of acceptance that reminded us of their equality as individuals...rather than trying to shove it down our throats.

Same goes for Womens' Suffrage, which leads, today, into feminism. We see the same also happening with the LGBT community. We look at the gay-pride parades and rather than feel a kinship, we feel...well, annoyance. Of course, doing NOTHING will not help acceptance, either, since if you're TOO passive, people will trample on you.

Think of it like this.

When pushing for acceptance in a group, do you:
A: Put on the most brightly-colored clothing you can find and dance in the streets dry-humping other individuals
B: Scream in someone's face that because you are not like them and they've been discriminated against by others who share your orientation/opinion/race, that therefore you're just as evil as they are
C: RUN AWAAAAY
D: Calmly but passionately remind that group that you've done nothing to harm anyone, you have no intention of harming them, and that you only want to be able to be seen as a human being, deserving of equal rights, responsibilities, and acceptance as the rest in the group, nothing more, nothing less.

If you answered anything but D...you are doing it very, very wrong.

I have zero problem with feminists. I like independent women. A woman who is my equal, where we don't have to deal with some slavish tradition-forced ritual of "girl does X, boy does Y, and that is their duties, PERIOD, end of discussion," is far more enticing than having to submit to some traditional ideal that is born of no rationality or reason but rather of millenia-old tribal ideas that serve no real purpose in modern society. But the moment a femiNAZI [key difference] gets in my face saying shit like I am a rape-supporter for going to a strip club, or I have to listen to some bitch stating that all the world's problems can be dumped on the feet of men or other such shit? I start losing my ability to really care about the plight of women.

Eventually, of course, I care again when after the spark of ire goes away and I remember not all or even most feminists are like that, but still my point stands that it doesn't benefit women at all for such individuals to do that. Their passion and energy and hatred is entirely misplaced and they are extremely counterproductive towards gaining total acceptance for women.

I'd say "same with the LGBT community" except the whole rampant hardcore-gay-sex-in-the-streets thing [embellishing a bit there; inb4 people start bitching at me that such things never happened...cuz apparently nobody on this forum knows how to understand exaggeration or sarcasm] has largely stopped...and, lo and behold, you notice that suddenly acceptance of the LGBT community is becoming far more widespread? Funny, that.

I suppose the hardcore drive is good for firing up the masses and getting attention for the issue if the issue isn't very commonly discussed or touched upon, but once that attention has been given, the hardcore crowd needs to shut the fuck up, calm down, and let the level-headed members speak up and begin the process of undoing the bias and bigotry. Keep up the furor too long, and you only build animosity and drag out the process of acceptance beyond the point that it needed to go.

Tl;dr: Once you've got my attention about the bigotry you are enduring, lower your voice and calmly explain what needs to change and why, and I'll be completely open to the idea. But keep screaming at me and I'm going to have a hard time fighting the urge to clock you. And the same goes for the majority of society.

It's worth noting that, no, you're never going to get 100% acceptance, there's too many fringe groups who pride themselves on being ass-backwards, but you can't please everyone, so don't bother.

Besides, nobody really gives a fuck what the rednecks think, anyway...nobody is even convinced that they DO think.

Basically: You can't force an idea, you can only convince others of it.

[frankiej]

I don't really have anything to add here, as everything has pretty much been said, but I saw a rather hilarious definition of misogyny the other day. I can't remember where I saw it though... "Misogyny: When a man hates a women as much as women hate each other."

It made me laugh a fair bit.

Annyyywaay, you will find extreme views in many walks of life, the best way to deal with them is to cut them off at the feet... that way they can't get any closer. They will, however, be screaming and bleeding everywhere. Hmm...

[Kayenneh]

"Misogyny: When a man hates a women as much as women hate each other."

Heehee, funny!