Can we have an honest, balanced, down to earth discussion about feminism?

[Tiberius]

Since the discussion of "equality in the workplace" has come up, I thought I'd post this informative video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwogDPh-Sow

[Creed of Heresy]

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Since the discussion of "equality in the workplace" has come up, I thought I'd post this informative video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwogDPh-Sow

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Yeah I've read about that. But, shush, Tibbers, don't tell the straw-feminists this; they'll respond to the destruction of a vital piece of "evidence" that points to men "keeping the woman down" in the same way a Christian will respond to pointing out the contradictions in the bible...

...Not well.

[TaraJo]

Wow. I love the responses here. I used to go on atheist forums a lot but dropped out of them for a while. It's really nice to find intelligent, balanced discussions here, and I'm reminded how much atheist forums had those before.

Anyway, lots of responses so I'll see what I can go into.

I once tried to get into several trans groups online... just couldn't get interested with them after having been here so long

I've had the opposite problem, so I've pretty much locked myself out of those sites. Too much negativity is bringing me down and, yet, there's still a part of me that wants to go back. Eventually, though, I'll find a new online niche and I'll stick it out there and I probably won't miss the haters one bit.

I worry about Lee, though, because he's just starting out and he still needs support, but he's been moving more away from the negative influences and found a lot more FtM oriented sites that are much more welcoming to him. So yay, I guess. I hope.

I'm sorry to hear that... but I'm gladdened that you feel secure enough to go forth without trans-community support and resources.

Well, technically, I'm just giving up most of my online trans community support. IRL, I can always go down to the TG center in Houston and get all the resources and support and whatever I need. Great thing is, most of the people there are much more upbeat, even the ones who have legitimate problems.

wish the interesting people wouldn't leave the community, but that's what friendship is for, silly me

Yeah, I know. I was dating another trans woman for over a year and she transitioned ten years before I did. A lot of her friends are people who used to be involved in the community but have kinda moved on. When I first moved to Houston, I was extremely involved but I've moved on and most of the people who were extremely involved then also moved on. Now there's an entirely new generation going through the support and resource seeking and it's interesting the way my role has changed in this generation. I've gone from being one of those people who has transition in her future to someone who has already been through it and is kinda like a matriarch and even, honestly, I'm finding a role for myself as the partner of a new trans man. It's really interesting to see the community through multiple generations and from several different perspectives.

At very least, I don't want to alienate the local community too much because I enjoy the monthly cook out we have.

I've experienced the same thing. There is a lot of naivete among some women about where patterns of sexism come from and who is responsible for them. I took a women in film class in a women's studies department in college out of a long time interest in the subject. It was interesting enough but I was so surprised when the professor made the comment, after a war film, that perhaps it was time to give a woman a chance. I told her if power was the kind of thing that was awarded to nice people we might also try giving it to men like Mahatma Ghandi. Of course power isn't the sort of thing that is given at all; it's taken.

We're all born and brought up in a culture where we wonder why women, in general, are so fem and men are so butch. That doesn't mean that men created this culture. Everyone creates the culture over great periods of time. No one thought it up or foisted it on anyone else. We just all struggle to find balance within it, whatever the perceived advantages and disadvantages. I'm sympathetic toward women but no way will I feel guilty or responsible for the situation.

Yeah, the philosophy here seems to be based on seeing the negative stereotypes society has for women, and the impact it has on us on a subconscious level. If anyone here is familiar with Mary Wollstonecroft, look up what she has to say about 'association of ideas' and you'll get the basic idea. Yet we're all so willing to look at the way those ideas shape our ideas about not just themselves but women in general, but we're unable to do the same with men. If seeing women as weak and inferior has an impact on how they choose to live their lives, why can't we admit that the many of these similar beliefs about men are having an impact on their lives as well?

I think you should be able to discuss anything on an atheist forum and have a good discussion.

I'm noticing that. I really like it. I hate unbalanced discussions where everyone kinda has to take one specific side or suffer severe social consequences and, yet, I've seen way too many of those.

I think we have come a long way where Germaine Greer started out. It was frowned upon a married women working. A married women was not allowed to have her own bank account.

Oh yeah, I don't think there is anyone who would try to argue Susan B. Anthony wasn't in the right for demanding the right to vote. The conflict start when you talk about how much misogyny is in modern culture.

Personally, I think there's a certain amount of confirmation bias on their part. If you go out of your way to find misogyny in a culture, you'll find it. Just like if you go out to find red cars, you'll see red cars everywhere or if you set out to find examples of anti-Christian bias in our country, you'll find it.

I think the most important thing is being able to have a choice. It really sucks when you are restricted because of your sex. I have had very unpleasent experiences with family court in Australia, which I believe me being male had a huge affect. Ever since I have been interested in gender equality. I can remember finding out a workplace I used to work at had a committee called 'Equality in the Workplace'. I asked why there was no males on the committee, they were surprised by my enquiry and invited me to join. Which I did with enthusiasm, but was continually left out of meetings or meetings would be changed without being informed. So to me it was not Equality in the Workplace but Feminism in the Workplace.

You have my sympathies. I know how painful it can be for a father to deal with family courts in regards to children and/or divorce.

Feminism...

You know, I ruminate on this every so often, and I've observed something interesting; groups that are unaccepted are eventually accepted via rational, level-headed pursuits of equality and justice for themselves. We take for example black Americans [no. I'm not saying African-American. Nobody calls me Nordo-Franko-Germanic-American, and all humanity ultimately came from Africa anyway so that would be far too broad; I refer only to approximation of skin-tone, and I place no derogatory undertone to the word] who lived in segregation from the white American population. Were they outspoken? Did they protest? Sure. But it was the cool-headed individuals who ultimately brought segregation down; women like Rosa Parks who nonviolently protested by simply sitting in a section of the bus and refused to move, men like Martin Luther King, Jr. who promoted peace and harmony and spoke of the truth that we are all human beings and should all be accepted equally without discrimination. We think of the Civil Rights Movement and we think of those kinds of individuals with respect. But then you hear about the "hardcore," in-your-face groups like the Black Panthers and we snigger, roll our eyes, or generally don't put as much respect on them as we did for those who were much more passive...because it was the ones who were passive, not aggressive, in their pursuits of acceptance that reminded us of their equality as individuals...rather than trying to shove it down our throats.

Oh, I can agree with this. In fact, I've tried to make the point many times. MLK was much more successful than Malcolm X at getting rights for black people and if you look at their messages, you'll understand why. MLK talked about compassion and brotherhood and about black and white children holding hands together. Malcolm X called white people the devil an said were evil and just wanted to oppress black people at every opportunity.

Same goes for Womens' Suffrage, which leads, today, into feminism. We see the same also happening with the LGBT community. We look at the gay-pride parades and rather than feel a kinship, we feel...well, annoyance. Of course, doing NOTHING will not help acceptance, either, since if you're TOO passive, people will trample on you.

Well, the only disagreement I have is about pride parades, but I don't see those as us fighting for rights. I see it as a big party where we can just go and have fun and fight back some of the shame that the world puts on us for being whatever kind of queer we are.

I have zero problem with feminists. I like independent women. A woman who is my equal, where we don't have to deal with some slavish tradition-forced ritual of "girl does X, boy does Y, and that is their duties, PERIOD, end of discussion," is far more enticing than having to submit to some traditional ideal that is born of no rationality or reason but rather of millenia-old tribal ideas that serve no real purpose in modern society.

Also agreed. Tough girls are awesome! I was always a big fan of Buffy for that reason.

I think that's another problem I'm having with modern feminism. Modern feminists are anything but tough. Instead of having Billy Jean King coming up and kicking the shit out of a guy who thought he could beat her just because he's a guy, modern feminists come up and tell us about all the social constructs that will oppress women and why women, no matter how hard they try are going to be held back because of the patriarchy. Standing up to sexism is always better than submitting to it. Fuck, a lot of the modern feminist ideas actually give power to sexism and the patriarchy that they fight so hard against.

But the moment a femiNAZI [key difference] gets in my face saying shit like I am a rape-supporter for going to a strip club, or I have to listen to some bitch stating that all the world's problems can be dumped on the feet of men or other such shit? I start losing my ability to really care about the plight of women.

Ugh. I hate extremists of any brand. Even atheist extremists can be dangerous. These are the reason people still listen to some of the anti-woman insanity coming from Todd Akin and Rush Limbaugh. All hey have to do is use an extremist feminist as an example of a feminazi and any time a woman disagrees with them on an issue, especially women's issues, just paint them with that same extreme brush. Yes, extremist feminists are holding back legitimate women's issues and nobody is calling them on it.

I suppose the hardcore drive is good for firing up the masses and getting attention for the issue if the issue isn't very commonly discussed or touched upon, but once that attention has been given, the hardcore crowd needs to shut the fuck up, calm down, and let the level-headed members speak up and begin the process of undoing the bias and bigotry. Keep up the furor too long, and you only build animosity and drag out the process of acceptance beyond the point that it needed to go.

I have never seen a statement I love more than that one. If it was possible to have sex with a statement, I would want to have sex with that one. There's a girl named Laci Green who has made videos for atheism in the past but now she focuses on her sex+ videos with an emphasis on body positive thinking and pro sexuality. She was run off the internet for about a month because some attacktivists didn't like one of her videos. Apparently, 3 or so years ago, she used the word 'tranny' in one of her videos and someone called her on it. She apologized and said she shouldn't have used the word, but they didn't let up. That's when people claimed that her taking pride in losing weight or talking about unhealthy lifestyles was fat shaming and people were angry at her for criticizing Islam and Mormonism and, finally, someone sent her a pic of her apartment that basically said "I know where you live you transphobic cunt and I'm gonna get you!" She went off the internet for a while and, according to her twitter, she moved, but I couldn't help but think of something. If this is the kind of experience she can expect from the trans community, we sure as hell didn't make any allies. If anything, if she wasn't transphobic before, she's more likely to be now.

It's worth noting that, no, you're never going to get 100% acceptance, there's too many fringe groups who pride themselves on being ass-backwards, but you can't please everyone, so don't bother.

Yeah, I know. I can't count how many times I've lamented the hipster activism going on there: you can't criticize a group unless it's mainstream.

Since the discussion of "equality in the workplace" has come up, I thought I'd post this informative video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwogDPh-Sow

Yes, I've heard of that! Interestingly enough, a lot of those studies came from Warren Farrell. He actually was on the board of NOW for three years before he started to see feminism turn extremely hostile towards men and masculinity. At that point, he started trying to turn his same psychological tools towards studying men and masculinity and he found things like this. He even wrote a book called why men earn more. The really interesting thing about it is how split feminism is over the book. Some look at it as a guide post on how women can achieve equality with men, at least as far as pay, while others complain that it doesn't give credit to misogyny. Well, can't keep extremists happy, can we?

[Anomalocaris]

Can we have an honest, balanced, down to earth discussion about feminism?

Yes, but it would not fall within the concerns of life sciences section, perhaps philosophy? history and politics?

[Shell B]

Good point, Chuck.

[Cinjin]

meh,
I find women are just like men in every sense. It may or may not be on the opposite end of the spectrum, but it's still the same.

Women: Exasperating, beautiful, annoying, amazing, intelligent, idiotic, thoughtless, empathetic, spiritual, bitchy, breath-taking, selfish, mesmerizing, etc. etc.
Men: Same

I'd rather just treat everyone the same, regardless of sex & race ... as equals.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Well, I don't know. How batshit could feminism be, really? Back in the day, they used to chain themselves somewhere and throw themselves in front of galloping horses, but now all they do is to write, talk and discuss. The content of these talks, writings and discussions is unimportant, as they're only ideas. Something becomes important once it becomes action, and I see no feminist army that vowed to rid the earth of men.

[TaraJo]

Yes, but it would not fall within the concerns of life sciences section, perhaps philosophy? history and politics?

Apologies. New girl here who doesn't know exactly what goes where. I just saw the thread on ex-gays and another on gender identity disorder and figured this fell into similar territory (probably because I'm getting over dealing with a herd of feminists who would be incredibly offended if it's seen differently). It probably is more a social science than anything, although even the science part is questionable because most of the theories in feminism aren't disprovable or tested.

Well, I don't know. How batshit could feminism be, really? Back in the day, they used to chain themselves somewhere and throw themselves in front of galloping horses, but now all they do is to write, talk and discuss. The content of these talks, writings and discussions is unimportant, as they're only ideas. Something becomes important once it becomes action, and I see no feminist army that vowed to rid the earth of men.

No, but some of them talk about it.

The SCUM manifesto is the single biggest example. I can forgive the writer since she wasn't really in touch with reality, but the otherwise sane people who try t defend it, no, they're crazy.

You can find some pretty hateful things online, too. The internet has been quite useful for extremists to publish their extremism views. There was one called 'The divine feminist blog' where she said some pretty crazy things, to the point that other feminists considered her a feminist version of Poe's Law. It's been taken down, but you can look up when other people have talked about her; her most infamous post was talking about creation of 'international castration day' where all men have to go out and have their testicles cut off, in a fairly public setting.

Heck, just spend ten minutes going through radfem hub and you'll see the kinds of crazy shit that will make your eyes bleed.

And one of the first lessons I've learned about psychology is that those ideas that are voiced and spread with these kinds of writings, they impact our actions and our feelings and our perceptions.

[kılıç_mehmet]

No, but some of them talk about it.

Yeah, they can talk as much as they want.
I also talk about a lot of stuff, not that I think it can really be archived or not, it's just talk.

The SCUM manifesto is the single biggest example. I can forgive the writer since she wasn't really in touch with reality, but the otherwise sane people who try t defend it, no, they're crazy.

I know of this manifesto. I also know of the writer, who seems to be keen on assasinating people she doesn't like, but I don't normally view things in terms of individuals, unless they are individuals of real importance, like people who have contributed to the overall ideology, or lead the ideas of people that follow the movement, and she's in no such position.
Like it can be a very funny conversation topic for women to joke about killing the male sex and all between friends and family, but I'm not really certain that people are keen to take this on the battlefield.

You can find some pretty hateful things online, too. The internet has been quite useful for extremists to publish their extremism views.

Yes, but I believe that most of these extremes rather dwell in the lands of dreams.

There was one called 'The divine feminist blog' where she said some pretty crazy things, to the point that other feminists considered her a feminist version of Poe's Law. It's been taken down, but you can look up when other people have talked about her; her most infamous post was talking about creation of 'international castration day' where all men have to go out and have their testicles cut off, in a fairly public setting.

Yes, that's the beauty of the internet. But I don't think that it's too much of a problem unless bands of women gather around with scalpels and baseball bats and go around castrating men like the amazons of the old, who did this with a rather religious overtone.

Heck, just spend ten minutes going through radfem hub and you'll see the kinds of crazy shit that will make your eyes bleed.

It's as you said, it's crazy, therefore I don't really put much value on it. They don't even have political weight, what really is their worth anyways?

[Waratah]

(This is because I am male,)I was thinking that feminism really don't have many issues, then I noticed the thread about the new laws in Arizona. WTF hock: