Divine Inspiration

[Drich]

Well...thou shalt not lie is not a commandment. Gossip can hurt people and mere anger, if it is never acted upon, is only hurtful to the person holding it. Also, are white lies immoral if they are told to emotionally protect someone? It is debatable.

Which is why your 'morality' fails as a true standard. Because even in some cultures simply holding a grudge is an immoral act. In God's standard these sins have been likened to the worst sins one can commit. Since God is judgeing your eternal fate (and not your peers) then it is to His standard you will be judged and not the ones you favor.

As for the bolded, you still have no evidence to support that claim.

If you 'hide' something then there is no reason for me to seek it. So I have no idea what you are talking about.

Just because people are imperfect doesn't make their morals a 'crap standard'.

What makes anything a crap standard is it's subjectablity to change. A Meter is a standard a gallon is a standard a Miniute, Hour, Mile or Kilometer is a standard. These "Measures" Are Not Subject to Change. "alot" is a crap measure of volume or weight, a "ways or a little while" is a crap way of measuring distance. Why? Because these 'measures' are subject to constant change, just like your understanding of Morality.

Maybe people are deviating from morality, has that not ever occured to you?

No Never!! Why? Because My 'morality' much like you own changes with what I do so I may justify my actions inorder to see myself as a Good Person. My Self Righteousness like your self Righteousness knows no bounds.

However God's Righteousness grounds my efforts and I see all of my short commings for what they are. While under going this Conviction of my sin I see no otherway to justify myself before a holy and righteous God other than to seek attonement. It is only through attonement that I finally become worthy even in my sinful selfrighteousness. Or as you perfer "Morality."

That was obvious sarcasm. If everyone thinks of themself as a terrible person...

Then they would seek redemption rather than try and justify their sins with self righteousness that demands a lowering of the bar.

well it's obvious why that would have negative effects.

I could see how going to Heaven would be negitive to someone looking to seperate themselves from God.

Think of The Scarlet Letter. Would you really want to live in a society like that?

Do you really think that if everyone is an admitted sinful person anyone could be in a position to judge another?

Is that society really more moral than ours? (Rhetorical:No it is not)

Why? Because self righteousness in the name of Christ is no better than the self righteouness you believe you have obtained that absolves you from needing Christ. No matter who weilds self righteousness, it is always a crap standard.

It's the stock answer for when people can't explain god's actions. Like here:http://www.whydoesntgodhealamputees.com/god4.htm

If you want an answer then YOU ask the question.

Agreed, one should do what is right on principle, not just because god says so. If god orders something immoral, you need to have the courage to resist it. After all, how do we know that he doesn't deliberately do bad things to see who is brave enough to stand up for what is right?

How can you use a crap standard to judge a command of God immoral? How do we know that you have simply not "moved the goal post" to demonize a standard of God?

If you understand him so well them why don't you explain why he allowed the holocaust?

Which one? There were several All of the ones in the past pointed to the dicipline of Israel. If you are referring to the last one I would think that it was a answer to a long standing prayer of the Jews. Now before you say something stupid or disrespectful about the Jews, ask yourself what has every Jew since 70AD till 1948 prayed for? What would every Devoute Jew gladly give their lives for that lived from that time till this, that was answered as a direct result of all who had suffered and died at the hands of evil men?
(Did He disappoint you with that answer? I am impressed. )

Especially when Hitler evoked his name in doing it. Hitler's religious views, and religious quotes from him

Actually no. Himler was all abot the religions and not just Christianity. He would invoke any 'god' that might help him gain an edge. Which was the reason the the swastica, the "SS" runes and the Death's Head on all of their elite troops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_v...olf_Hitler

Define 'given'.

John (The owner of a very large company who I have only met in passing once or twice EVER):
" Hey, "Drich" Something in side of me is telling me I should support you and set you up with some money so you can do what God has lead you to do. How much do you need to get started?

Me: What? Me? started in what?

John: I'm not sure, but I know you to be a man of intergerity, and I know you have been given vision, and I want to support you in what it is you want to do. Know I am not giveing you this money it is a loan, one you must pay back in 2 years so don't ask what you can pay back.

Me: Let me talk to my wife and I will let you know.

I talked with my wife and prayed about it. It would take 50K to start a ministry I wanted to do, and 30K to start a refrigeration business. 3 days later We asked for 50K on the 2nd or 3rd time I ever met this man and He wrote a check for 25K, I cashed it, and went into business. Paid back the loan inside a year and have given everything we can back to God minus a hand ful of indulgences and living expences. As a result my buisness has doubled every year since we started (Even in this down economy.) For 5 years and then took on a Brand name refrigeration system, and 3 years after that I have been 'promoted' with in the company as one of 3 engineers who have completely changed My industry in a very big way. (which is the reason for my recent business trips.) These new refrigeration systems are catching national attention as they are the only truly 'green' systems in this industry. (which is the Power ball lottery ticket I was talking about) All to someone who should not have graduated High school let alone be in the position I am currently in.

If the guy gave you lottery numbers and those won, that would be one thing. However, if you have acquired wealth through other methods, then I don't know if that proves anything.

For you, my expereinces should mean absolutly nothing. What i have experienced is MY 'Proof' That sustains MY Faith. The Only reason I have shared my story with you is because the promise I cashed in on is also avaiable to you. All you need is the faith of a mustard seed to start the process.

Fianances? I meant that you could have misremembered him as predicing something that later happened that he didn't actually mention.

I was told to write this story down a day or so after this all happened. Nothing has changed.

Again this is not proof for you. It is my proof. If you want proof you must walk your own path with God.

Well, that leaves us with two options. Either you really are lying and just admitted you made it ambiguous to be more believable (not an accusation, just an observation of a possibility) or you misremembered. Again, why does god value belief without proof over worship? He has no reason not to give proof of his existence.

God has given you this life to make your own choice. If you choose God He will help eastablish a Faith in you and help you sustain it. If you do not choose God then you will be given enough doubt in everything you see and hear to perserve your choice in eternity. If God has seen fit to give this to you then who am I to try and convince you of anything? This is not my Job. I am only to answer the questions that I can. I have done so and that means the rest of the responsiablity of what you have learned is between you and God.

Missionaries go to Africa...so does the peace corps, and the peace corps doesn't say god told them to. (I don't even know if many missionaries say that) The fact is, the problem is still there. Jesus fed the hungry, but god is relatively apathetic about the Africans.

It seems you are apathetic about the Africans. As You are the one who see a Needs there and does little besides blame God for His appearent apathy.. Even after He has charged us with the complete care of this world and everyone/thing in it.

No as in, yes it isn't a cotradiciton, or no as in he didn't order genocide? Genocide in the bible If you don't believe the site, then look up those passages referenced in an actual bible.

No as in I have studied the bible and do not see anything in the bible that would say God is not allowed to command that an entire race of people be killed.

So, if I understand you correctly, god knew that the path he was on would end up in dissapointment...but he didn't change anything.

Noope.

And I am supposed to assume that he had a good reason for going against his own will?

Where did He go against His own will?
It seems you assume too much about God.

[Darkstar]

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Which is why your 'morality' fails as a true standard. Because even in some cultures simply holding a grudge is an immoral act. In God's standard these sins have been likened to the worst sins one can commit. Since God is judgeing your eternal fate (and not your peers) then it is to His standard you will be judged and not the ones you favor.

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There is nothing that can be substituted for morality as a standard.

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What makes anything a crap standard is it's subjectablity to change. A Meter is a standard a gallon is a standard a Miniute, Hour, Mile or Kilometer is a standard. These "Measures" Are Not Subject to Change. "alot" is a crap measure of volume or weight, a "ways or a little while" is a crap way of measuring distance. Why? Because these 'measures' are subject to constant change, just like your understanding of Morality.

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You don't need to standardize morality as 'a lot' and 'a little'. You standardize it as immoral, moral, or questionable. God provides absolute moral standards and they fail miserably for that reason: they are not subject to change and therefore cannot be corrected.

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Maybe people are deviating from morality, has that not ever occured to you?

No Never!! Why? Because My 'morality' much like you own changes with what I do so I may justify my actions inorder to see myself as a Good Person. My Self Righteousness like your self Righteousness knows no bounds.

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God's self righteousness knows no bounds. All righteousness is god's self righteousness. If you think that you are incapable of differentiating between right and wrong, then it is your problem. I don't need god to tell me not to steal, or not to stone someone to death for picking up sticks on a Sunday...if it wasn't obvious: Numbers15:32-36

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While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord commanded Moses.

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However God's Righteousness grounds my efforts and I see all of my short commings for what they are. While under going this Conviction of my sin I see no otherway to justify myself before a holy and righteous God other than to seek attonement. It is only through attonement that I finally become worthy even in my sinful selfrighteousness. Or as you perfer "Morality."

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So having morals is sinful...we should just repent perpetually, rather than try to be good people because we will all eventually make at least one mistake in our lives.

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That was obvious sarcasm. If everyone thinks of themself as a terrible person...

Then they would seek redemption rather than try and justify their sins with self righteousness that demands a lowering of the bar.

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Or they would say "forget this! Let's do whatever we want!" Treat someone like a monster for long enough and they start to act like one. How exactly do you suppose that turning away from the jealous god's self-righteousness is lowering the bar?

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Think of The Scarlet Letter. Would you really want to live in a society like that?

Do you really think that if everyone is an admitted sinful person anyone could be in a position to judge another?

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Here's the problem: by 'sinful' you mean imperfect. There are varying degrees of 'sinfulness', and lumping murderers in with the same group as social workers is unfair. Of course, you are convinced that the entire human race is garbage, and even more of garbage to dare think otherwise, so why bother debating this point with you?

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Is that society really more moral than ours? (Rhetorical:No it is not)

Why? Because self righteousness in the name of Christ is no better than the self righteouness you believe you have obtained that absolves you from needing Christ. No matter who weilds self righteousness, it is always a crap standard.

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God wields self-righteousness exclusively

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Agreed, one should do what is right on principle, not just because god says so. If god orders something immoral, you need to have the courage to resist it. After all, how do we know that he doesn't deliberately do bad things to see who is brave enough to stand up for what is right?

How can you use a crap standard to judge a command of God immoral? How do we know that you have simply not "moved the goal post" to demonize a standard of God?

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I see now. You are so utterly incapable of questioning that you will always assume that god is just. How do you know god is not evil? You assume that he knows best. Even when he does morally reprehensible things, you move goalposts and say that we are morally reprehensible for questioning the ethics of stoning someone for picking up sticks on a Sunday. God is not just and he never was. He is the strongest, and therefore can impose his unjust will on humanity.

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Which one? There were several All of the ones in the past pointed to the dicipline of Israel. If you are referring to the last one I would think that it was a answer to a long standing prayer of the Jews. Now before you say something stupid or disrespectful about the Jews, ask yourself what has every Jew since 70AD till 1948 prayed for? What would every Devoute Jew gladly give their lives for that lived from that time till this, that was answered as a direct result of all who had suffered and died at the hands of evil men?
(Did He disappoint you with that answer? I am impressed. )

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...what are you talking about!?! Are you saying that the jews wanted the holocaust?
Then explain why so many of them desperately tried to avoid dying.

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Especially when Hitler evoked his name in doing it. Hitler's religious views, and religious quotes from him

Actually no. Himler was all abot the religions and not just Christianity. He would invoke any 'god' that might help him gain an edge. Which was the reason the the swastica, the "SS" runes and the Death's Head on all of their elite troops.

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Hitler was a roman catholic. The fact that he evoked the name of many gods wouldn't help your case. Also, what other god would he be doing the work of by killing jews other then the god of christianity, who says that all people of other religions must die?

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John (The owner of a very large company who I have only met in passing once or twice EVER):
" Hey, "Drich" Something in side of me is telling me I should support you and set you up with some money so you can do what God has lead you to do. How much do you need to get started?

Me: What? Me? started in what?

John: I'm not sure, but I know you to be a man of intergerity, and I know you have been given vision, and I want to support you in what it is you want to do. Know I am not giveing you this money it is a loan, one you must pay back in 2 years so don't ask what you can pay back.

Me: Let me talk to my wife and I will let you know.

I talked with my wife and prayed about it. It would take 50K to start a ministry I wanted to do, and 30K to start a refrigeration business. 3 days later We asked for 50K on the 2nd or 3rd time I ever met this man and He wrote a check for 25K, I cashed it, and went into business. Paid back the loan inside a year and have given everything we can back to God minus a hand ful of indulgences and living expences. As a result my buisness has doubled every year since we started (Even in this down economy.) For 5 years and then took on a Brand name refrigeration system, and 3 years after that I have been 'promoted' with in the company as one of 3 engineers who have completely changed My industry in a very big way. (which is the reason for my recent business trips.) These new refrigeration systems are catching national attention as they are the only truly 'green' systems in this industry. (which is the Power ball lottery ticket I was talking about) All to someone who should not have graduated High school let alone be in the position I am currently in.

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It sounds like he knew of your 'vision', which would make it a self-fulfilling prophecy. Even if not, I don't know how this proves god. He didn't even say 'god told me to give you this money'.

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If the guy gave you lottery numbers and those won, that would be one thing. However, if you have acquired wealth through other methods, then I don't know if that proves anything.

For you, my expereinces should mean absolutly nothing. What i have experienced is MY 'Proof' That sustains MY Faith. The Only reason I have shared my story with you is because the promise I cashed in on is also avaiable to you. All you need is the faith of a mustard seed to start the process.

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I am wondering two things now:
1. If you admit it will never have meaning to me, then why use it in a debate? (Now, in this case I kind of prompted you to, so it's different).
2. If that happened to me, it wouldn't prove anything. Why does god only give individual proof? Again: Why does god value belief over worship and obedience. I won't obey something I don't believe exists, and there are atheists who wish god were real. Why won't he reveal himself? It is not our duty to play hide and seek with him, as it is a wild goose chase with no time limit if he doesn't exist, and yet could still take decades if he does. If we only have one life, I won't waste it searching for something that I don't believe exists.

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Well, that leaves us with two options. Either you really are lying and just admitted you made it ambiguous to be more believable (not an accusation, just an observation of a possibility) or you misremembered. Again, why does god value belief without proof over worship? He has no reason not to give proof of his existence.

God has given you this life to make your own choice. If you choose God He will help eastablish a Faith in you and help you sustain it. If you do not choose God then you will be given enough doubt in everything you see and hear to perserve your choice in eternity. If God has seen fit to give this to you then who am I to try and convince you of anything? This is not my Job. I am only to answer the questions that I can. I have done so and that means the rest of the responsiablity of what you have learned is between you and God.

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You and god are both making unreasonable demands. You say we won't find evidence for him until after we have already convinced ourselves of him. Then we can let confirmation bias and credulity run rampant to our hearts content and find all of the personal 'proof' we need, while never finding any actual evidence.

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Missionaries go to Africa...so does the peace corps, and the peace corps doesn't say god told them to. (I don't even know if many missionaries say that) The fact is, the problem is still there. Jesus fed the hungry, but god is relatively apathetic about the Africans.

It seems you are apathetic about the Africans. As You are the one who see a Needs there and does little besides blame God for His appearent apathy.. Even after He has charged us with the complete care of this world and everyone/thing in it.

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I don't think you understand the point I'm making. What I'm saying is this:
1. The Peace Corps is a secular organization. Religion does not have a monopoly on helping Africa. In fact, I'd wager that their contibutions are smaller when compared with secular government aid.
2. If god gave us charge of the world and is letting the Africans starve, then why is he helping you, personally? I also don't know how you came to the conclusion that I don't care about starving Africans. Religion just isn't saving them.

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No as in, yes it isn't a cotradiciton, or no as in he didn't order genocide? Genocide in the bible If you don't believe the site, then look up those passages referenced in an actual bible.

No as in I have studied the bible and do not see anything in the bible that would say God is not allowed to command that an entire race of people be killed.

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Exactly my point. He makes "thou shall not kill" a commandment, while making breaking any of the top four commandments a killing offense. Remember the stick gaterer from earlier in the post?


[hide

And I am supposed to assume that he had a good reason for going against his own will?

Where did He go against His own will?
It seems you assume too much about God.

[/hide]

It seems you assume nothing other than 'he had his reasons'...which is assuming everything. If god is unknowable, then why do you constantly defend him? You don't know much about him, other than what can be inferred from his actions. Logically, one can infer that god is a monster, from his actions. You have the presupposed idea that he is always just, nullifying any argument against him.

Mark 4:10-12

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When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that,


“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’”

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Proof that if god exists he wants us to burn.

[Drich]

There is nothing that can be substituted for morality as a standard.

God's Righteousness is the standard in which your 'morality/Self righteousness' was derived.

God set a standard. One man could not ever hope to obtain. So rather than seeking attonement Man creates his own version of 'righteousness' Or Self righteousness and dubbs it 'morality.' fast forward a few thousand years and now man judges God with this ever changing standard. The really brave take this self righteousness and then turn it and say because God does not submit Himself to this standard He is not 'moral' as if that were a standard to begin with.

God's self righteousness knows no bounds. All righteousness is god's self righteousness. If you think that you are incapable of differentiating between right and wrong, then it is your problem. I don't need god to tell me not to steal, or not to stone someone to death for picking up sticks on a Sunday...if it wasn't obvious: Numbers15:32-36

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While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord commanded Moses.

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So? He's god. When one is the creator one makes the rules for all others to live by.

So having morals is sinful...

Being self righteous is sinful yes!!!

we should just repent perpetually, rather than try to be good people because we will all eventually make at least one mistake in our lives.

Do you even know what 'repent' means? You have used it incorrectly in this statement.

Or they would say "forget this! Let's do whatever we want!"

Kinda like what has happened.. almost like if it were planned out somehow!

Treat someone like a monster for long enough and they start to act like one.

If that is what they have in their hearts. Yes.

Here's the problem: by 'sinful' you mean imperfect.

No by sinful I mean what the bible identifies as sin. Anything outside the Expressed will of God.

There are varying degrees of 'sinfulness', and lumping murderers in with the same group as social workers is unfair. Of course, you are convinced that the entire human race is garbage, and even more of garbage to dare think otherwise, so why bother debating this point with you?

Christ 'lumped' Murders and people who bore a grudge with others into the same group in Mat 5.

I see now. You are so utterly incapable of questioning that you will always assume that god is just. How do you know god is not evil?

Honestly answer this question I have asked it several times now and you seem to be avoiding it. If God is evil then how would you know? Because it is to God's standard in which we are judged. How can we judge God. Who would perside over Him? Who would prnounce sentence and who would see that it was carried out?

Even if there were some magical force that maintained good and evil apart from God and we could identify God as evil, then it is by an evil God we were created and it is by an evil God we must serve.

That is why you have been given this life. for if you think you have found this magical standard and can not live with God forever because you have judged him too evil then know you have the oppertunity to opt out of eternity with Him.

...what are you talking about!?! Are you saying that the jews wanted the holocaust?

I am saying Jews have prayed from the holocaust in 70AD till the one started by hitler in the 1940's to get their home (jerusalem) back. And I will also say that for any Jew who has earestly prayed this prayer from 70ad till the 1940's would have gladly given their lives to have this happen. I am also saying this was the cost (the Holocaust) the world needed to see the Jews pay inorder to justify the home comming of the Jews to their promised land.

Then explain why so many of them desperately tried to avoid dying.

Because they did not know why they were dying.

It sounds like he knew of your 'vision', which would make it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Now you being desperate. I said hi to the man 2 times before He spoke to me and offered me money. How did John know anything?

Even if not, I don't know how this proves god. He didn't even say 'god told me to give you this money'.

So you had a man give offer you this kind of money for any reason?

I am wondering two things now:
1. If you admit it will never have meaning to me, then why use it in a debate? (Now, in this case I kind of prompted you to, so it's different).

Till this point in 5 years of answering peoples questions (thousands and thousands of questions) I have never used this story. I have never used this story in church nor any other out reach. The only time I tell this story is when people ask How i got started in this business, and when someone (you) asked how did God give me money as a way to full fill what the messenger told me. That's it. outside of my family I have maybe spoken of this 6 times total.
I told this to you because you asked "for the reason of the 'joy' inside of me" in this instance. I was obligated to share.

2. If that happened to me, it wouldn't prove anything.

So why should God approach you this way? Maybe you need to be broken, maybe you need to have your health taken away, or the health oof a loved one, or maybe you need to marry someone with a substance abuse problem, or maybe you need to worry or pray over you children to have God let you go to the edge or maybe over the edge and pull you back or help you rebuild. I don't know what you will need as Proof, but God does It all depends on how hard you let your heart become. So if you want to know with absolute certainty, then all you have to do is Ask, Seek and knock and be faith to what you have been given.

Why does god only give individual proof?

Again: Because it allows people like you to not be forced into belief and self perservation mode. If this were to happen your life, this whole realm would be meaningless.

Why does god value belief over worship and obedience.

Because true belief requires something the other two do not. and if one can truly believe then that means he has truly humbled Himself before God and allow God to lift him up. Fore we are told none can believe without the Help of the Holy Spirit. We are told by Christ in luke 11 how to obtain our measure of the Holy Spirit. A/S/K Which requires the smallest amount of faith and a whole lot of humiltiy (appearently for some as witnessed by your next statement: )

I won't obey something I don't believe exists, and there are atheists who wish god were real.

Why won't he reveal himself?

Maybe you should rephrase and ask: Why won't god reveal Himself to me when I command?

Because He is God and YOU are no body. Again if you demanded Obama to appear before you and proove himself to you would he? No, of course not. why? (same reason) Now if a leader of one nation can (and rightfully should blow you off) then why would the creator of EVERYTHING do anything more for you than what has already been done? If you can't be bothered to humble yourself like every other man who has ever sought an audience with Him then why should he do anything for you?

It is not our duty to play hide and seek with him, as it is a wild goose chase with no time limit if he doesn't exist, and yet could still take decades if he does. If we only have one life, I won't waste it searching for something that I don't believe exists.

Meh, then don't.

You and god are both making unreasonable demands. You say we won't find evidence for him until after we have already convinced ourselves of him.

I did not say that at all. you are confusing you old standby christian arguements with what I have told you. I said all you need is enough faith to ask seek and knock, and when God gives you something be faithful to it.

Then we can let confirmation bias and credulity run rampant to our hearts content and find all of the personal 'proof' we need, while never finding any actual evidence.

Just out of curisoity what does 'evidence of God' look like?

Exactly my point. He makes "thou shall not kill" a commandment, while making breaking any of the top four commandments a killing offense. Remember the stick gaterer from earlier in the post?

We've discussed this. I can give you the Hebrew word if you like. The command is YOU Shall not Murder. Not Kill. Murder is the unsanctioned taking of a Human life. If God commands the genocide of an entire race or even planet then the taking of human life is indeed sanctioned.

Taking of human life in of itself is not a sin. It is the taking of life when not sanctioned by God is the sin.

[Darkstar]

This is getting ridiculously long. Basically, you admit that you cannot ever be convinced that god is immoral and there is no point in debating it with you. You also admitted that anything is good if god says so, and bad if he says so. There is no objective morality:

Murder is the unsanctioned taking of a Human life. If God commands the genocide of an entire race or even planet then the taking of human life is indeed sanctioned.

Taking of human life in of itself is not a sin. It is the taking of life when not sanctioned by God is the sin.

This proves that morality is subjective in that god can rewrite it anytime he likes.

You also hold that the holocaust was the best method god could use to get the jews their land back. I find this borderline disturbing.

You also said that because a clearly religious man gave you a loan to help you do 'whatever god wanted you to do' proves god, and that I'm desperate for considering his mentioning of your 'vision' implied that he knew of, well, your 'experience'.

So why should God approach you this way? Maybe you need to be broken, maybe you need to have your health taken away, or the health oof a loved one, or maybe you need to marry someone with a substance abuse problem, or maybe you need to worry or pray over you children to have God let you go to the edge or maybe over the edge and pull you back or help you rebuild.

Exactly. Broken people are desperate and need an imaginary friend to fill the hole. Of course, I wouldn't cave and give up reason, and I'm not trying to sound superior by this, I;m simply stating a fact. I wouldn't use religion as an opiate; I would actually fix the problem.

I don't know what you will need as Proof, but God does It all depends on how hard you let your heart become. So if you want to know with absolute certainty, then all you have to do is Ask, Seek and knock and be faith to what you have been given.

You missed my point entirely. God knows what I need as proof, he just won't give it. If I look for god and then have faith that whatever I find is proof of god then of course I'll 'find' god!

Maybe you should rephrase and ask: Why won't god reveal Himself to me when I command?

Not to me, to everyone! AGAIN: Why does he not just cut the crap and just show himself so he can see who will and won't follow?

Because He is God and YOU are no body.

Then why does he care so much about my lack of belief in him without evidence that he'll send me to hell for it?
Just out of curisoity what does 'evidence of God' look like?
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Something that must be an act of god. An unambiguous sign declaring itself god whilst doing something impossible.

[Drich]

This proves that morality is subjective in that god can rewrite it anytime he likes.

The only thing this proves is that you do not understand the standard of God which He put into place thousands of years ago. Rather you have created a picture of what you think God should be and what His religion is and have set into attack the straw man you have built for yourself. Open your eyes, and accept that you have no a dark age understanding of God that you are trying to make comply with your own personal standard.

You also hold that the holocaust was the best method god could use to get the jews their land back. I find this borderline disturbing.

is that what you think? Even after I told you that the most recent Holocaust was the method needed to convince the World to give the Jews their land back. Meaning if you are disturbed it should be with those who would not have allowed the jews to have their land back if so many of them had not died so terriably. After all look at the region after WWI it was up for grabs then as well. Why wasn't it given back to the jews then? Because of the hard hearts of men.

You also said that because a clearly religious man gave you a loan to help you do 'whatever god wanted you to do' proves god, and that I'm desperate for considering his mentioning of your 'vision' implied that he knew of, well, your 'experience'.

lol, John is/was not religious. He is a Jew but not a practicing one. (Try again)

As I told you Before he walked up to me and out of the blue offered me the money I had not said a word to him besides hello or how is it going?

What makes you desperate is that you are trying to ascribe some reason that you can live with as to why a perfect stranger would give me money to "Do with it as I see fit." I do not know why he did what He did other than to say God lead him to do so. I asked him why and all he could tell me was "it felt right." If you really must find some way to explain my experiences away, simply call me a liar and move on. I do not want to spend any more time correcting your false assumptions.

Exactly. Broken people are desperate and need an imaginary friend to fill the hole. Of course, I wouldn't cave and give up reason, and I'm not trying to sound superior by this, I;m simply stating a fact. I wouldn't use religion as an opiate; I would actually fix the problem.

Which is why I suggested that you may need a termall disease or maybe you need to deal with a substance abuse problem of a loved one. Because in those situations you will come to a quick understanding that 'fixing' the problem is beyond your abity to will it so. Life offers us these 'trials' as oppertunities to lay down our pride and earnestly seek God. When your trial comes, know that you do not have to satasify your pride to A/S/K for God. If God delivers you from said trial it is most important that you honor what He has done. for if you try and use God to see you clear and then explain it all away as you have done here. then you will have damned yourself in such a way to almost find it impossiable to come back from.

You missed my point entirely. God knows what I need as proof, he just won't give it. If I look for god and then have faith that whatever I find is proof of god then of course I'll 'find' god!

No I did not miss you point I over spoke your point. Why? Because your demand for proof will never be met on your terms. then I showed you Again how to approach God to obtain what He has offered us in the way of proof.

Not to me, to everyone! AGAIN: Why does he not just cut the crap and just show himself so he can see who will and won't follow?

A-G-A-I-N: Because if their were absolute proof then the purpose of this life. the purpose God has set us in this realm (To proove to ourselves what we truly think of God and where we wish to spend eternity) will have been voided out by the absolute revelation of God. For if God is known to exist and you know Hell is a real place then self perservation will have kicked in and you will go through the motions of christianity to try and hide what your heart trully feels for God. Then on the day of your judgement you will expect to be saved from eternal damnation for giving this life to the christian religion. But Understand God is no fool. He knows the Hearts of men and if you were simply going through the motions you would be sent to hell anyways (as Christ points out that will happen to some of us in the book of Matthew.) As it is now. you have been blinded from the know glory of God so you can live according to what your heart truly wants.

Then why does he care so much about my lack of belief in him without evidence that he'll send me to hell for it?

Appearently He doesn't if we use you standard of measure.

Something that must be an act of god. An unambiguous sign declaring itself god whilst doing something impossible.

Such as?

[Darkstar]

For if God is known to exist and you know Hell is a real place then self perservation will have kicked in and you will go through the motions of christianity to try and hide what your heart trully feels for God.

I don't have time to respond to the rest, but I keep saying that god would know if we did it for self-preservation and we would be foolish to think otherwise.

[Drich]

I don't have time to respond to the rest, but I keep saying that god would know if we did it for self-preservation and we would be foolish to think otherwise.

Holy Smokes! And I will keep saying it's not for God that we are here. God could have created us and imediatly sent those who would deny Him straight to hell. Our time here is for us. so we know that God's judgement is just. When you live your life apart from the imediate knoweledge of God you do what you want. If you want God you will find him and if you want to live for self you will!

[Darkstar]

I don't have time to respond to the rest, but I keep saying that god would know if we did it for self-preservation and we would be foolish to think otherwise.

Holy Smokes! And I will keep saying it's not for God that we are here. God could have created us and imediatly sent those who would deny Him straight to hell. Our time here is for us. so we know that God's judgement is just. When you live your life apart from the imediate knoweledge of God you do what you want. If you want God you will find him and if you want to live for self you will!

...I see. Most of what you just said actually sounded pretty noble until you said "If you want god you will find him". The thing is, that satatement is very true, but not representative of morality. Those who want to see god will interpret coincidence as proof of his existence. Those who do not, or are neutral, tend to conclude from the big picture that a single anecdote cannot oppose complete lack of evidence in all other fields. (By the way, if you value anecdotal evidence, then please try to justify this. And please don't say "well she's with god now, because he 'saved' plenty of other people throughout history who didn't even ask.) If god were hiding his existence to see who would do good, then that is good. If he is hiding his existence to see who will follow without evidence, then we have a problem. In this case, he would value credulity over morality. However, as you are clearly convinced that morality is 'a crap standard' because god's morality is isn't unchanging, then there is no point in pressing that issue with you. The theory that Hitler really was doing god's work, although unnerving, is actually kind of interesting as I had never expected to hear anything like it.

You may think that I am deliberately sidestepping the story of how you started your business because I am 'desperate'. I am not. Please see the bottom of this post for an understanding of how someone can claim god told them to do something when...he clearly wasn't needed. I assumed that he was religious because you claimed he said he was giving you the money to do 'waht god wanted you to do'. You have already admitted that anecdotal evidence without hard evidence can only possibly be of use the the person who experienced it, so I think it would be better to just leave it alone.

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To get back on topic; this thread was for whether the bible was divinely inspired. If you are utterly convinced that killing people who pick up sticks on a Sunday is okay because god says so, then we have reached a dead end in debate over his morality.

Instead, I will return to the original topic. First, I have a contradiction you may look into if you like: Matthew 1:16

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and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

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Luke 3:23

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Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,

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See bolded.

Also, I would like to remind you of the scientific errors.

[The Grand Nudger]

If you 'hide' something then there is no reason for me to seek it. So I have no idea what you are talking about.

Couldn't have said it better myself.........Now go tell that to your man.

[KichigaiNeko]