Divine Inspiration

[Drich]

Well...thou shalt not lie is not a commandment. Gossip can hurt people and mere anger, if it is never acted upon, is only hurtful to the person holding it. Also, are white lies immoral if they are told to emotionally protect someone? It is debatable.

Which is why your 'morality' fails as a true standard. Because even in some cultures simply holding a grudge is an immoral act. In God's standard these sins have been likened to the worst sins one can commit. Since God is judgeing your eternal fate (and not your peers) then it is to His standard you will be judged and not the ones you favor.

As for the bolded, you still have no evidence to support that claim.

If you 'hide' something then there is no reason for me to seek it. So I have no idea what you are talking about.

Just because people are imperfect doesn't make their morals a 'crap standard'.

What makes anything a crap standard is it's subjectablity to change. A Meter is a standard a gallon is a standard a Miniute, Hour, Mile or Kilometer is a standard. These "Measures" Are Not Subject to Change. "alot" is a crap measure of volume or weight, a "ways or a little while" is a crap way of measuring distance. Why? Because these 'measures' are subject to constant change, just like your understanding of Morality.

Maybe people are deviating from morality, has that not ever occured to you?

No Never!! Why? Because My 'morality' much like you own changes with what I do so I may justify my actions inorder to see myself as a Good Person. My Self Righteousness like your self Righteousness knows no bounds.

However God's Righteousness grounds my efforts and I see all of my short commings for what they are. While under going this Conviction of my sin I see no otherway to justify myself before a holy and righteous God other than to seek attonement. It is only through attonement that I finally become worthy even in my sinful selfrighteousness. Or as you perfer "Morality."

That was obvious sarcasm. If everyone thinks of themself as a terrible person...

Then they would seek redemption rather than try and justify their sins with self righteousness that demands a lowering of the bar.

well it's obvious why that would have negative effects.

I could see how going to Heaven would be negitive to someone looking to seperate themselves from God.

Think of The Scarlet Letter. Would you really want to live in a society like that?

Do you really think that if everyone is an admitted sinful person anyone could be in a position to judge another?

Is that society really more moral than ours? (Rhetorical:No it is not)

Why? Because self righteousness in the name of Christ is no better than the self righteouness you believe you have obtained that absolves you from needing Christ. No matter who weilds self righteousness, it is always a crap standard.

It's the stock answer for when people can't explain god's actions. Like here:http://www.whydoesntgodhealamputees.com/god4.htm

If you want an answer then YOU ask the question.

Agreed, one should do what is right on principle, not just because god says so. If god orders something immoral, you need to have the courage to resist it. After all, how do we know that he doesn't deliberately do bad things to see who is brave enough to stand up for what is right?

How can you use a crap standard to judge a command of God immoral? How do we know that you have simply not "moved the goal post" to demonize a standard of God?

If you understand him so well them why don't you explain why he allowed the holocaust?

Which one? There were several All of the ones in the past pointed to the dicipline of Israel. If you are referring to the last one I would think that it was a answer to a long standing prayer of the Jews. Now before you say something stupid or disrespectful about the Jews, ask yourself what has every Jew since 70AD till 1948 prayed for? What would every Devoute Jew gladly give their lives for that lived from that time till this, that was answered as a direct result of all who had suffered and died at the hands of evil men?
(Did He disappoint you with that answer? I am impressed. )

Especially when Hitler evoked his name in doing it. Hitler's religious views, and religious quotes from him

Actually no. Himler was all abot the religions and not just Christianity. He would invoke any 'god' that might help him gain an edge. Which was the reason the the swastica, the "SS" runes and the Death's Head on all of their elite troops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_v...olf_Hitler

Define 'given'.

John (The owner of a very large company who I have only met in passing once or twice EVER):
" Hey, "Drich" Something in side of me is telling me I should support you and set you up with some money so you can do what God has lead you to do. How much do you need to get started?

Me: What? Me? started in what?

John: I'm not sure, but I know you to be a man of intergerity, and I know you have been given vision, and I want to support you in what it is you want to do. Know I am not giveing you this money it is a loan, one you must pay back in 2 years so don't ask what you can pay back.

Me: Let me talk to my wife and I will let you know.

I talked with my wife and prayed about it. It would take 50K to start a ministry I wanted to do, and 30K to start a refrigeration business. 3 days later We asked for 50K on the 2nd or 3rd time I ever met this man and He wrote a check for 25K, I cashed it, and went into business. Paid back the loan inside a year and have given everything we can back to God minus a hand ful of indulgences and living expences. As a result my buisness has doubled every year since we started (Even in this down economy.) For 5 years and then took on a Brand name refrigeration system, and 3 years after that I have been 'promoted' with in the company as one of 3 engineers who have completely changed My industry in a very big way. (which is the reason for my recent business trips.) These new refrigeration systems are catching national attention as they are the only truly 'green' systems in this industry. (which is the Power ball lottery ticket I was talking about) All to someone who should not have graduated High school let alone be in the position I am currently in.

If the guy gave you lottery numbers and those won, that would be one thing. However, if you have acquired wealth through other methods, then I don't know if that proves anything.

For you, my expereinces should mean absolutly nothing. What i have experienced is MY 'Proof' That sustains MY Faith. The Only reason I have shared my story with you is because the promise I cashed in on is also avaiable to you. All you need is the faith of a mustard seed to start the process.

Fianances? I meant that you could have misremembered him as predicing something that later happened that he didn't actually mention.

I was told to write this story down a day or so after this all happened. Nothing has changed.

Again this is not proof for you. It is my proof. If you want proof you must walk your own path with God.

Well, that leaves us with two options. Either you really are lying and just admitted you made it ambiguous to be more believable (not an accusation, just an observation of a possibility) or you misremembered. Again, why does god value belief without proof over worship? He has no reason not to give proof of his existence.

God has given you this life to make your own choice. If you choose God He will help eastablish a Faith in you and help you sustain it. If you do not choose God then you will be given enough doubt in everything you see and hear to perserve your choice in eternity. If God has seen fit to give this to you then who am I to try and convince you of anything? This is not my Job. I am only to answer the questions that I can. I have done so and that means the rest of the responsiablity of what you have learned is between you and God.

Missionaries go to Africa...so does the peace corps, and the peace corps doesn't say god told them to. (I don't even know if many missionaries say that) The fact is, the problem is still there. Jesus fed the hungry, but god is relatively apathetic about the Africans.

It seems you are apathetic about the Africans. As You are the one who see a Needs there and does little besides blame God for His appearent apathy.. Even after He has charged us with the complete care of this world and everyone/thing in it.

No as in, yes it isn't a cotradiciton, or no as in he didn't order genocide? Genocide in the bible If you don't believe the site, then look up those passages referenced in an actual bible.

No as in I have studied the bible and do not see anything in the bible that would say God is not allowed to command that an entire race of people be killed.

So, if I understand you correctly, god knew that the path he was on would end up in dissapointment...but he didn't change anything.

Noope.

And I am supposed to assume that he had a good reason for going against his own will?

Where did He go against His own will?
It seems you assume too much about God.

[Darkstar]

[Drich]

[Darkstar]

This is getting ridiculously long. Basically, you admit that you cannot ever be convinced that god is immoral and there is no point in debating it with you. You also admitted that anything is good if god says so, and bad if he says so. There is no objective morality:

Murder is the unsanctioned taking of a Human life. If God commands the genocide of an entire race or even planet then the taking of human life is indeed sanctioned.

Taking of human life in of itself is not a sin. It is the taking of life when not sanctioned by God is the sin.

This proves that morality is subjective in that god can rewrite it anytime he likes.

You also hold that the holocaust was the best method god could use to get the jews their land back. I find this borderline disturbing.

You also said that because a clearly religious man gave you a loan to help you do 'whatever god wanted you to do' proves god, and that I'm desperate for considering his mentioning of your 'vision' implied that he knew of, well, your 'experience'.

So why should God approach you this way? Maybe you need to be broken, maybe you need to have your health taken away, or the health oof a loved one, or maybe you need to marry someone with a substance abuse problem, or maybe you need to worry or pray over you children to have God let you go to the edge or maybe over the edge and pull you back or help you rebuild.

Exactly. Broken people are desperate and need an imaginary friend to fill the hole. Of course, I wouldn't cave and give up reason, and I'm not trying to sound superior by this, I;m simply stating a fact. I wouldn't use religion as an opiate; I would actually fix the problem.

I don't know what you will need as Proof, but God does It all depends on how hard you let your heart become. So if you want to know with absolute certainty, then all you have to do is Ask, Seek and knock and be faith to what you have been given.

You missed my point entirely. God knows what I need as proof, he just won't give it. If I look for god and then have faith that whatever I find is proof of god then of course I'll 'find' god!

Maybe you should rephrase and ask: Why won't god reveal Himself to me when I command?

Not to me, to everyone! AGAIN: Why does he not just cut the crap and just show himself so he can see who will and won't follow?

Because He is God and YOU are no body.

Then why does he care so much about my lack of belief in him without evidence that he'll send me to hell for it?
Just out of curisoity what does 'evidence of God' look like?
[/quote]

Something that must be an act of god. An unambiguous sign declaring itself god whilst doing something impossible.

[Drich]

This proves that morality is subjective in that god can rewrite it anytime he likes.

The only thing this proves is that you do not understand the standard of God which He put into place thousands of years ago. Rather you have created a picture of what you think God should be and what His religion is and have set into attack the straw man you have built for yourself. Open your eyes, and accept that you have no a dark age understanding of God that you are trying to make comply with your own personal standard.

You also hold that the holocaust was the best method god could use to get the jews their land back. I find this borderline disturbing.

is that what you think? Even after I told you that the most recent Holocaust was the method needed to convince the World to give the Jews their land back. Meaning if you are disturbed it should be with those who would not have allowed the jews to have their land back if so many of them had not died so terriably. After all look at the region after WWI it was up for grabs then as well. Why wasn't it given back to the jews then? Because of the hard hearts of men.

You also said that because a clearly religious man gave you a loan to help you do 'whatever god wanted you to do' proves god, and that I'm desperate for considering his mentioning of your 'vision' implied that he knew of, well, your 'experience'.

lol, John is/was not religious. He is a Jew but not a practicing one. (Try again)

As I told you Before he walked up to me and out of the blue offered me the money I had not said a word to him besides hello or how is it going?

What makes you desperate is that you are trying to ascribe some reason that you can live with as to why a perfect stranger would give me money to "Do with it as I see fit." I do not know why he did what He did other than to say God lead him to do so. I asked him why and all he could tell me was "it felt right." If you really must find some way to explain my experiences away, simply call me a liar and move on. I do not want to spend any more time correcting your false assumptions.

Exactly. Broken people are desperate and need an imaginary friend to fill the hole. Of course, I wouldn't cave and give up reason, and I'm not trying to sound superior by this, I;m simply stating a fact. I wouldn't use religion as an opiate; I would actually fix the problem.

Which is why I suggested that you may need a termall disease or maybe you need to deal with a substance abuse problem of a loved one. Because in those situations you will come to a quick understanding that 'fixing' the problem is beyond your abity to will it so. Life offers us these 'trials' as oppertunities to lay down our pride and earnestly seek God. When your trial comes, know that you do not have to satasify your pride to A/S/K for God. If God delivers you from said trial it is most important that you honor what He has done. for if you try and use God to see you clear and then explain it all away as you have done here. then you will have damned yourself in such a way to almost find it impossiable to come back from.

You missed my point entirely. God knows what I need as proof, he just won't give it. If I look for god and then have faith that whatever I find is proof of god then of course I'll 'find' god!

No I did not miss you point I over spoke your point. Why? Because your demand for proof will never be met on your terms. then I showed you Again how to approach God to obtain what He has offered us in the way of proof.

Not to me, to everyone! AGAIN: Why does he not just cut the crap and just show himself so he can see who will and won't follow?

A-G-A-I-N: Because if their were absolute proof then the purpose of this life. the purpose God has set us in this realm (To proove to ourselves what we truly think of God and where we wish to spend eternity) will have been voided out by the absolute revelation of God. For if God is known to exist and you know Hell is a real place then self perservation will have kicked in and you will go through the motions of christianity to try and hide what your heart trully feels for God. Then on the day of your judgement you will expect to be saved from eternal damnation for giving this life to the christian religion. But Understand God is no fool. He knows the Hearts of men and if you were simply going through the motions you would be sent to hell anyways (as Christ points out that will happen to some of us in the book of Matthew.) As it is now. you have been blinded from the know glory of God so you can live according to what your heart truly wants.

Then why does he care so much about my lack of belief in him without evidence that he'll send me to hell for it?

Appearently He doesn't if we use you standard of measure.

Something that must be an act of god. An unambiguous sign declaring itself god whilst doing something impossible.

Such as?

[Darkstar]

For if God is known to exist and you know Hell is a real place then self perservation will have kicked in and you will go through the motions of christianity to try and hide what your heart trully feels for God.

I don't have time to respond to the rest, but I keep saying that god would know if we did it for self-preservation and we would be foolish to think otherwise.

[Drich]

I don't have time to respond to the rest, but I keep saying that god would know if we did it for self-preservation and we would be foolish to think otherwise.

Holy Smokes! And I will keep saying it's not for God that we are here. God could have created us and imediatly sent those who would deny Him straight to hell. Our time here is for us. so we know that God's judgement is just. When you live your life apart from the imediate knoweledge of God you do what you want. If you want God you will find him and if you want to live for self you will!

[Darkstar]

[The Grand Nudger]

If you 'hide' something then there is no reason for me to seek it. So I have no idea what you are talking about.

Couldn't have said it better myself.........Now go tell that to your man.

[KichigaiNeko]