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October 31, 2012 at 8:16 pm (This post was last modified: October 31, 2012 at 8:35 pm by Darkstar.)
(October 31, 2012 at 3:06 am)Godschild Wrote: This is not the first time you have brought this up, and in part you're right the Israel of today is the one being spoken of, you now need to go to the book of Revelation, you can find the answer there. You will find the answer about Israel when you learn about Christ's second coming, it is in their desperation and His second coming they realize who He is and find that peace.
Okay, I get it now. Thanks for the explanation.
(October 31, 2012 at 3:06 am)Godschild Wrote: While you are reading pay close attention to wormwood and it's description, then look up the Russian equivalent. But don't jump the gun read the book first.
I knew you would jump the gun.
In my defense I read the passage about wormwood before looking up that it meant Chernobyl. Not sure what that is supposed to mean though...
Also, I might mention:
Quote:10 The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— 11 the name of the star is Wormwood.[a] A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.
Quote:Footnotes:a.Revelation 8:11 Wormwood is a bitter substance.
@ Darkstar, do a search on what Chernobyl did to the water supply of other nations.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
wikipedia Wrote:Health of plant workers and local people
See also: Deaths due to the Chernobyl disaster
In the aftermath of the accident, 237 people suffered from acute radiation sickness (ARS), of whom 31 died within the first three months. Most of the victims were fire and rescue workers trying to bring the accident under control, who were not fully aware of how dangerous the exposure to radiation in the smoke was. Whereas, in the World Health Organization's 2006 report of the Chernobyl Forum expert group on the 237 emergency workers who were diagnosed with ARS, ARS was identified as the cause of death for 28 of these people within the first few months after the disaster.
No further ARS-related deaths were identified in the general population affected by the disaster. Of the 72,000 Russian Emergency Workers being studied, 216 non-cancer deaths are attributed to the disaster, between 1991 and 1998.[citation needed] Of all 66,000 Belarusian emergency workers, by the mid-1990s only 150 (roughly 0.2%) were reported by their government as having died. In contrast, 5,722 casualties were reported among Ukrainian clean-up workers up to the year 1995, by the National Committee for Radiation Protection of the Ukrainian Population.
The latency period for solid cancers caused by excess radiation exposure is 10 or more years; thus at the time of the WHO report being undertaken, the rates of solid cancer deaths were no greater than the general population.[citation needed][dubious – discuss] Some 135,000 people were evacuated from the area, including 50,000 from Pripyat.[citation needed]
wikipedia Wrote:Rivers, lakes and reservoirs
The Chernobyl nuclear power plant is located next to the Pripyat River, which feeds into the Dnipro River reservoir system, one of the largest surface water systems in Europe, which at the time supplied water to Kiev's 2.4 million residents, and was still in spring flood when the accident occured. The radioactive contamination of aquatic systems therefore became a major problem in the immediate aftermath of the accident. In the most affected areas of Ukraine, levels of radioactivity (particularly from radionuclides 131I, 137Cs and 90Sr) in drinking water caused concern during the weeks and months after the accident, though officially it was stated that all contaminants had settled to the bottom "in an insoluble phase" and would not dissolve for 800–1,000 years. Guidelines for levels of radioiodine in drinking water were temporarily raised to 3,700 Bq/L, allowing most water to be reported as safe, and a year after the accident it was announced that even the water of the Chernobyl plant's cooling pond was within acceptable norms. Despite this, two months after the disaster the Kiev water supply was abruptly switched from the Dnieper to the Desna River. Meanwhile, massive silt traps were constructed, along with an enormous 30m-deep underground barrier to prevent groundwater from the destroyed reactor entering the Pripyat River.
Bio-accumulation of radioactivity in fish resulted in concentrations (both in western Europe and in the former Soviet Union) that in many cases were significantly above guideline maximum levels for consumption. Guideline maximum levels for radiocaesium in fish vary from country to country but are approximately 1,000 Bq/kg in the European Union. In the Kiev Reservoir in Ukraine, concentrations in fish were several thousand Bq/kg during the years after the accident.
In small "closed" lakes in Belarus and the Bryansk region of Russia, concentrations in a number of fish species varied from 100 to 60,000 Bq/kg during the period 1990–92. The contamination of fish caused short-term concern in parts of the UK and Germany and in the long term (years rather than months) in the affected areas of Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia as well as in parts of Scandinavia.
Groundwater
Groundwater was not badly affected by the Chernobyl accident since radionuclides with short half-lives decayed away long before they could affect groundwater supplies, and longer-lived radionuclides such as radiocaesium and radiostrontium were adsorbed to surface soils before they could transfer to groundwater. However, significant transfers of radionuclides to groundwater have occurred from waste disposal sites in the 30 km (19 mi) exclusion zone around Chernobyl. Although there is a potential for transfer of radionuclides from these disposal sites off-site (i.e. out of the 30 km (19 mi) exclusion zone), the IAEA Chernobyl Report argues that this is not significant in comparison to current levels of washout of surface-deposited radioactivity.
Compared with:
Quote:a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— 11 the name of the star is Wormwood.[a] A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.
What is 'a third of the waters'? Chernobyl certainly didn't affect a third of the earth's water, and from the wikipedia article it doesn't sound like 'many people dies' from the water.
Quote:2. How has human health been affected by the Chernobyl accident?
How were humans exposed to radiation?
After the accident, people were exposed to radiation both directly from the radioactive cloud and the radioactive materials deposited on the ground, and through consuming contaminated food or breathing contaminated air.
2.1 Doses of radiation received during and immediately after the accident were high for some emergency workers, but much lower for later recovery-operation workers and people living in the contaminated areas. Because of contaminated milk, the thyroids of many children were heavily exposed to radioactive iodine.
At present, 100 000 people living in contaminated areas still receive a higher dose of radiation than the limit recommended for the general public.
2.2 It is difficult to tell precisely the number of deaths – past and future – attributable to the Chernobyl accident, because people who have been exposed to low levels of radiation often die from the same causes as unexposed people.
Confusion about the impact of the accident has given rise to highly exaggerated claims that tens or even hundreds of thousands of people have died as a result of the accident. In fact, a much smaller death toll can be directly attributable to Chernobyl radiation. Twenty-eight emergency workers died from acute radiation syndrome, 15 patients died from thyroid cancer, and it is roughly estimated that the total number of deaths from cancers caused by Chernobyl may reach 4000 among the 600 000 people having received the greastest exposures.
2.3 In the general population of the contaminated regions, there is so far no convincing evidence that Chernobyl has increased the number of cases of leukaemia or solid cancers, except for childhood thyroid cancer.
Thousands of those who were children and adolescents at the time of the accident have developed thyroid cancer as a result of exposure to radioactive iodine. The majority of those cancers have been treated successfully. Among workers who were exposed to higher doses of radiation this exposure has contributed to an increase in the number of cases of certain types of leukaemia and solid cancers, and possibly of cardiovascular diseases and cataracts. Future analytical studies should be able to clarify this.
2.4 As most people received relatively low doses of radiation from the Chernobyl accident, there is no convincing evidence of effects on human fertility and heritable diseases, nor have any effects been observed for pregnancy outcomes and on the overall health of children of exposed parents.
2.5 Many people were traumatized by the accident and the rapid relocation that followed. Lacking reliable information, they were fearful and anxious about their current and future health and often perceived themselves as weak and helpless victims rather than as survivors.
3. How has the environment been affected by the Chernobyl accident?
Some areas of Europe were substantially contaminated, particularly in current Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine by the large quantities of radioactive materials released from the damaged reactor. Most of these materials have since transformed into stable, non-radioactive materials but some will remain radioactive for a long time. More...
3.1 The urban areas near the reactor were heavily contaminated and rapidly evacuated. Since the accident, surface contamination has decreased and levels of radiation measured in the air are now the same as before the accident in most of these areas.
3.2 Regarding agriculture, the contamination of crops, meat, and milk with short-lived radioactive iodine was a major concern in the early months after the accident. Now and for decades to come, contamination with longer-lived radioactive caesium is the main concern in some rural areas.
3.3 Forest food products such as berries, mushrooms, and game contain particularly high levels of long-lived radioactive caesium and this contamination is expected to remain high for several decades. For instance, the accident led to high contamination of reindeer meat in Scandinavia. More...
3.4 As a result of the accident, water bodies and fish became contaminated with radioactive materials. The contamination soon decreased as a result of dilution and decay but some of the materials remained trapped in the soils around contaminated rivers and lakes. Today, most water bodies and fish have low radioactivity levels, although the levels in some closed lakes remain high.
3.5 The accident immediately affected many plants and animals living within 30 km of the site. There was an increase in mortality and a decrease in reproduction and some genetic anomalies in plants and animals are still reported today. Over the years, as the radioactivity levels decreased, the biological populations started to recover and the area has become a unique sanctuary for biodiversity.
Now, taking a closer look at the water aspect:
Quote:3.4 To what extent have water bodies been contaminated?
Radioactive caesium in fish
Radioactive materials from Chernobyl deposited on rivers, lakes and some water reservoirs both in areas close to the reactor site and in other parts of Europe. The amount of radioactive materials present in water bodies decreased rapidly during the first weeks after the initial deposition because the radioactive materials decayed, were diluted or were absorbed by the surrounding soils.
Fish absorbed radioactive iodine very quickly but the levels decreased rapidly due to radioactive decay . Bioaccumulation of radioactive caesium along the aquatic food chain resulted in high concentrations in fish in some lakes as far away as Scandinavia and Germany. The levels of strontium-90 in fish did not lead to significant human exposure, particularly as it accumulates in bones rather than in edible parts.
Aquatic bodies are still being contaminated by runoff of long lived caesium-137 and strontium-90 released from contaminated soils. At present, the water and fish of rivers, open lakes and reservoirs have low levels of caesium-137 and strontium-90. However, in some “closed” lakes with no outflowing streams in Belarus, Russia and Ukraine both water and fish will remain contaminated with caesium-137 for decades to come.
Contamination levels of the Black and Baltic seas were much lower than those in fresh water because of greater dilution and distance from Chernobyl.
I don't see the water killing many people. Also, the footnote (from biblegateway) said that wormwood was a bitter substance, the likely origin of the name. Are you trying to claim that this is the fulfillment of a prophecy? Also, no 'star' fell from the sky and caused this.
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
wikipedia Wrote:Health of plant workers and local people
See also: Deaths due to the Chernobyl disaster
In the aftermath of the accident, 237 people suffered from acute radiation sickness (ARS), of whom 31 died within the first three months. Most of the victims were fire and rescue workers trying to bring the accident under control, who were not fully aware of how dangerous the exposure to radiation in the smoke was. Whereas, in the World Health Organization's 2006 report of the Chernobyl Forum expert group on the 237 emergency workers who were diagnosed with ARS, ARS was identified as the cause of death for 28 of these people within the first few months after the disaster.
No further ARS-related deaths were identified in the general population affected by the disaster. Of the 72,000 Russian Emergency Workers being studied, 216 non-cancer deaths are attributed to the disaster, between 1991 and 1998.[citation needed] Of all 66,000 Belarusian emergency workers, by the mid-1990s only 150 (roughly 0.2%) were reported by their government as having died. In contrast, 5,722 casualties were reported among Ukrainian clean-up workers up to the year 1995, by the National Committee for Radiation Protection of the Ukrainian Population.
The latency period for solid cancers caused by excess radiation exposure is 10 or more years; thus at the time of the WHO report being undertaken, the rates of solid cancer deaths were no greater than the general population.[citation needed][dubious – discuss] Some 135,000 people were evacuated from the area, including 50,000 from Pripyat.[citation needed]
wikipedia Wrote:Rivers, lakes and reservoirs
The Chernobyl nuclear power plant is located next to the Pripyat River, which feeds into the Dnipro River reservoir system, one of the largest surface water systems in Europe, which at the time supplied water to Kiev's 2.4 million residents, and was still in spring flood when the accident occured. The radioactive contamination of aquatic systems therefore became a major problem in the immediate aftermath of the accident. In the most affected areas of Ukraine, levels of radioactivity (particularly from radionuclides 131I, 137Cs and 90Sr) in drinking water caused concern during the weeks and months after the accident, though officially it was stated that all contaminants had settled to the bottom "in an insoluble phase" and would not dissolve for 800–1,000 years. Guidelines for levels of radioiodine in drinking water were temporarily raised to 3,700 Bq/L, allowing most water to be reported as safe, and a year after the accident it was announced that even the water of the Chernobyl plant's cooling pond was within acceptable norms. Despite this, two months after the disaster the Kiev water supply was abruptly switched from the Dnieper to the Desna River. Meanwhile, massive silt traps were constructed, along with an enormous 30m-deep underground barrier to prevent groundwater from the destroyed reactor entering the Pripyat River.
Bio-accumulation of radioactivity in fish resulted in concentrations (both in western Europe and in the former Soviet Union) that in many cases were significantly above guideline maximum levels for consumption. Guideline maximum levels for radiocaesium in fish vary from country to country but are approximately 1,000 Bq/kg in the European Union. In the Kiev Reservoir in Ukraine, concentrations in fish were several thousand Bq/kg during the years after the accident.
In small "closed" lakes in Belarus and the Bryansk region of Russia, concentrations in a number of fish species varied from 100 to 60,000 Bq/kg during the period 1990–92. The contamination of fish caused short-term concern in parts of the UK and Germany and in the long term (years rather than months) in the affected areas of Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia as well as in parts of Scandinavia.
Groundwater
Groundwater was not badly affected by the Chernobyl accident since radionuclides with short half-lives decayed away long before they could affect groundwater supplies, and longer-lived radionuclides such as radiocaesium and radiostrontium were adsorbed to surface soils before they could transfer to groundwater. However, significant transfers of radionuclides to groundwater have occurred from waste disposal sites in the 30 km (19 mi) exclusion zone around Chernobyl. Although there is a potential for transfer of radionuclides from these disposal sites off-site (i.e. out of the 30 km (19 mi) exclusion zone), the IAEA Chernobyl Report argues that this is not significant in comparison to current levels of washout of surface-deposited radioactivity.
Ds Wrote:Compared with:
Quote:a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— 11 the name of the star is Wormwood.[a] A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.
What is 'a third of the waters'? Chernobyl certainly didn't affect a third of the earth's water, and from the wikipedia article it doesn't sound like 'many people dies' from the water.
The scriptures did not say a third of the worlds waters, however a third of Europe's waters were contaminated, caused to taste bitter, just as scripture says. People did die from the contaminated waters and quite a many died from the water. Do you really think the whole truth of the contamination was released, the cost to supply people with usable water would be enormous. I've seen where the site can only be visited for very short periods at this time, and that the wolves that are studied there are seriously contaminated, so much so that when one dies it's bones can not be touched by man's bare hands without great risk of serious contamination. Let me ask you this, the report said the cooling pools were of little danger today, would you drink water directly from them, I doubt it, guess what neither will the Russians who made this report.
Quote:2. How has human health been affected by the Chernobyl accident?
How were humans exposed to radiation?
After the accident, people were exposed to radiation both directly from the radioactive cloud and the radioactive materials deposited on the ground, and through consuming contaminated food or breathing contaminated air.
2.1 Doses of radiation received during and immediately after the accident were high for some emergency workers, but much lower for later recovery-operation workers and people living in the contaminated areas. Because of contaminated milk, the thyroids of many children were heavily exposed to radioactive iodine.
At present, 100 000 people living in contaminated areas still receive a higher dose of radiation than the limit recommended for the general public.
2.2 It is difficult to tell precisely the number of deaths – past and future – attributable to the Chernobyl accident, because people who have been exposed to low levels of radiation often die from the same causes as unexposed people.
Confusion about the impact of the accident has given rise to highly exaggerated claims that tens or even hundreds of thousands of people have died as a result of the accident. In fact, a much smaller death toll can be directly attributable to Chernobyl radiation. Twenty-eight emergency workers died from acute radiation syndrome, 15 patients died from thyroid cancer, and it is roughly estimated that the total number of deaths from cancers caused by Chernobyl may reach 4000 among the 600 000 people having received the greastest exposures.
2.3 In the general population of the contaminated regions, there is so far no convincing evidence that Chernobyl has increased the number of cases of leukaemia or solid cancers, except for childhood thyroid cancer.
Thousands of those who were children and adolescents at the time of the accident have developed thyroid cancer as a result of exposure to radioactive iodine. The majority of those cancers have been treated successfully. Among workers who were exposed to higher doses of radiation this exposure has contributed to an increase in the number of cases of certain types of leukaemia and solid cancers, and possibly of cardiovascular diseases and cataracts. Future analytical studies should be able to clarify this.
2.4 As most people received relatively low doses of radiation from the Chernobyl accident, there is no convincing evidence of effects on human fertility and heritable diseases, nor have any effects been observed for pregnancy outcomes and on the overall health of children of exposed parents.
2.5 Many people were traumatized by the accident and the rapid relocation that followed. Lacking reliable information, they were fearful and anxious about their current and future health and often perceived themselves as weak and helpless victims rather than as survivors.
3. How has the environment been affected by the Chernobyl accident?
Some areas of Europe were substantially contaminated, particularly in current Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine by the large quantities of radioactive materials released from the damaged reactor. Most of these materials have since transformed into stable, non-radioactive materials but some will remain radioactive for a long time. More...
3.1 The urban areas near the reactor were heavily contaminated and rapidly evacuated. Since the accident, surface contamination has decreased and levels of radiation measured in the air are now the same as before the accident in most of these areas.
3.2 Regarding agriculture, the contamination of crops, meat, and milk with short-lived radioactive iodine was a major concern in the early months after the accident. Now and for decades to come, contamination with longer-lived radioactive caesium is the main concern in some rural areas.
3.3 Forest food products such as berries, mushrooms, and game contain particularly high levels of long-lived radioactive caesium and this contamination is expected to remain high for several decades. For instance, the accident led to high contamination of reindeer meat in Scandinavia. More...
3.4 As a result of the accident, water bodies and fish became contaminated with radioactive materials. The contamination soon decreased as a result of dilution and decay but some of the materials remained trapped in the soils around contaminated rivers and lakes. Today, most water bodies and fish have low radioactivity levels, although the levels in some closed lakes remain high.
3.5 The accident immediately affected many plants and animals living within 30 km of the site. There was an increase in mortality and a decrease in reproduction and some genetic anomalies in plants and animals are still reported today. Over the years, as the radioactivity levels decreased, the biological populations started to recover and the area has become a unique sanctuary for biodiversity.
Now, taking a closer look at the water aspect:
Quote:3.4 To what extent have water bodies been contaminated?
Radioactive caesium in fish
Radioactive materials from Chernobyl deposited on rivers, lakes and some water reservoirs both in areas close to the reactor site and in other parts of Europe. The amount of radioactive materials present in water bodies decreased rapidly during the first weeks after the initial deposition because the radioactive materials decayed, were diluted or were absorbed by the surrounding soils.
Fish absorbed radioactive iodine very quickly but the levels decreased rapidly due to radioactive decay . Bioaccumulation of radioactive caesium along the aquatic food chain resulted in high concentrations in fish in some lakes as far away as Scandinavia and Germany. The levels of strontium-90 in fish did not lead to significant human exposure, particularly as it accumulates in bones rather than in edible parts.
Aquatic bodies are still being contaminated by runoff of long lived caesium-137 and strontium-90 released from contaminated soils. At present, the water and fish of rivers, open lakes and reservoirs have low levels of caesium-137 and strontium-90. However, in some “closed” lakes with no outflowing streams in Belarus, Russia and Ukraine both water and fish will remain contaminated with caesium-137 for decades to come.
Contamination levels of the Black and Baltic seas were much lower than those in fresh water because of greater dilution and distance from Chernobyl.
Ds Wrote:I don't see the water killing many people. Also, the footnote (from biblegateway) said that wormwood was a bitter substance, the likely origin of the name. Are you trying to claim that this is the fulfillment of a prophecy? Also, no 'star' fell from the sky and caused this.
I read the entire statement you posted, and I've seen independent reporting on the wolves in the area. The report said the ground no longer presents a real threat, yet these scientist that studied the wolves were not allowed to stay very long, this was to keep them safe. They had to be careful not to kick up dust as it could cause contamination. They took their own water in to drink, and Russians were with them all the time. They were not allowed to go near the reactor site, though I do not think they were very tempted to. None have been allowed near the reactor site, so nobody knows exactly how deep the core burned into the earth. This place glowed and smoked as if hit by a large falling object, you must remember John had no idea what a star's size was, however I'm sure he was familiar with meteors 'falling stars'. John described what he thought he was seeing. Yes the contamination is less on the surface of the ground, rain has carried the material underground, and I know this, the contamination goes with it and the rain water will and does find it's way to underground water sources. If the water did not make it to underground water eventually the ground would become saturated and a swamp would form. People rarely eat the deer from the area and the ones who do risk their health.
Am I saying a prophecy or part of a prophecy has come about, maybe, it does fit every well with the sounding of the third trumpet, don't you think. If you will go back and read all you presented and pay attention to the numbers for the people killed I think you will see it's many. I will say this, if Chernobyl is the completion of the third trumpet, one thing you can bet, times short, very short.
As you said Chernobyl means bitter, scripture says the waters were made bitter, the description of the contaminated waters, BITTER.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
November 1, 2012 at 3:27 pm (This post was last modified: November 1, 2012 at 3:51 pm by Darkstar.)
There were some problems and I somehow posted this accidentally, but it should be fixed now.
(November 1, 2012 at 3:22 am)Godschild Wrote:
I read the entire statement you posted, and I've seen independent reporting on the wolves in the area. The report said the ground no longer presents a real threat, yet these scientist that studied the wolves were not allowed to stay very long, this was to keep them safe. They had to be careful not to kick up dust as it could cause contamination. They took their own water in to drink, and Russians were with them all the time. They were not allowed to go near the reactor site, though I do not think they were very tempted to. None have been allowed near the reactor site, so nobody knows exactly how deep the core burned into the earth. This place glowed and smoked as if hit by a large falling object, you must remember John had no idea what a star's size was, however I'm sure he was familiar with meteors 'falling stars'. John described what he thought he was seeing. Yes the contamination is less on the surface of the ground, rain has carried the material underground, and I know this, the contamination goes with it and the rain water will and does find it's way to underground water sources. If the water did not make it to underground water eventually the ground would become saturated and a swamp would form. People rarely eat the deer from the area and the ones who do risk their health.
Am I saying a prophecy or part of a prophecy has come about, maybe, it does fit every well with the sounding of the third trumpet, don't you think. If you will go back and read all you presented and pay attention to the numbers for the people killed I think you will see it's many. I will say this, if Chernobyl is the completion of the third trumpet, one thing you can bet, times short, very short.
As you said Chernobyl means bitter, scripture says the waters were made bitter, the description of the contaminated waters, BITTER.
Actually, I never said that Chernobyl means bitter. Wormwood was the name of a bitter substance, as indicated by the footnote on bible gateway.
Quote:10 The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— 11 the name of the star is Wormwood.[a] A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.
So what you are telling me is that John only thought a blazing star fell from the sky, and it was actually a nuclear meltdown originating on the ground? Another good question would be why was it in Russian? Why not Hebrew, or at least Greek? Wormwood was the name of a bitter substance, as indicated by the footnote; why would we assume it actually referred to a Russian word? Likewise, what of the first two trumpets? They would be impossible to miss, detailing how a third of the earth burned and a third of the seas turned to blood. If you really think this is a prophecy, then I don't think there is any point in trying to reason with you. Time is on my side: when the last person alive during Chernobyl dies, you will be proven wrong. (On a side note, your inability to provide sources, while not in itself invalidating your claims, certainly doesn't help them.)
I finally got around to reading the book of Joshua, along with the first chapeter of Judges.
I will give a summary of the pertinant parts and how they relate to the iron chariots incident. (Any bolding present in passages has been added by me for emphasis.) It is very long...
First, in the opening paragraph of Joshua, god promises to give Joshua all the land he sets foot on.
1 After the death of Moses the servant of the LORD, the LORD said to Joshua son of Nun, Moses’ aide: 2 “Moses my servant is dead. Now then, you and all these people, get ready to cross the Jordan River into the land I am about to give to them—to the Israelites. 3 I will give you every place where you set your foot, as I promised Moses. 4 Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates—all the Hittite country—to the Mediterranean Sea in the west. 5 No one will be able to stand against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you. 6 Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their ancestors to give them.
However, he also tells Joshua that he must be careful to obey him.
Joshua 1
7 “Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go. 8 Keep this Book of the Law always on your lips; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful. 9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go.”
Then, Joshua relays god's message to the Israelites here:
Joshua 3
7 And the LORD said to Joshua, “Today I will begin to exalt you in the eyes of all Israel, so they may know that I am with you as I was with Moses. 8 Tell the priests who carry the ark of the covenant: ‘When you reach the edge of the Jordan’s waters, go and stand in the river.’”
9 Joshua said to the Israelites, “Come here and listen to the words of the LORD your God. 10 This is how you will know that the living God is among you and that he will certainly drive out before you the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites. 11 See, the ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth will go into the Jordan ahead of you. 12 Now then, choose twelve men from the tribes of Israel, one from each tribe. 13 And as soon as the priests who carry the ark of the LORD—the Lord of all the earth—set foot in the Jordan, its waters flowing downstream will be cut off and stand up in a heap.”
This contains two seperate promises: exaltation and absolute conquest. The first is fulfilled here:
Joshua 4
10 Now the priests who carried the ark remained standing in the middle of the Jordan until everything the Lord had commanded Joshua was done by the people, just as Moses had directed Joshua. The people hurried over, 11 and as soon as all of them had crossed, the ark of the Lord and the priests came to the other side while the people watched. 12 The men of Reuben, Gad and the half-tribe of Manasseh crossed over, ready for battle, in front of the Israelites, as Moses had directed them. 13 About forty thousand armed for battle crossed over before the Lord to the plains of Jericho for war.
14 That day the Lord exalted Joshua in the sight of all Israel; and they stood in awe of him all the days of his life, just as they had stood in awe of Moses.
As for the second, it is evidenced throughout the book. The Israelites slaughter several populations with god's aid. Some of these killing happen under unusual circumstances, such as when god asks them to march around Jericho for a whole week for no apparent reason, but Jericho does fall (both literally and figuratively). Another odd happenstance is when god stops the sun and moon:
Joshua 10
12 On the day the LORD gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel:
“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,
and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on its enemies,
as it is written in the Book of Jashar.
The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. 14 There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the LORD listened to a human being. Surely the LORD was fighting for Israel!
The adverse effects this would have on earth are ignored, but one could simply say that god, being omnipotent, had already taken them into account and conuteracted them. This is further proof of the great lengths that god would go to to ensure victory for his side: they could not be defeated.
Once Joshua had finished massacring the entire enemy population
Joshua 11
21 At that time Joshua went and destroyed the Anakites from the hill country: from Hebron, Debir and Anab, from all the hill country of Judah, and from all the hill country of Israel. Joshua totally destroyed them and their towns. 22 No Anakites were left in Israelite territory; only in Gaza, Gath and Ashdod did any survive.
he divided it up between the tribes.
It shouild be noted that god himself ordered this division.
Joshua 13
8 The other half of Manasseh,[a] the Reubenites and the Gadites had received the inheritance that Moses had given them east of the Jordan, as he, the servant of the Lord, had assigned it to them.Joshua 14
14 Now these are the areas the Israelites received as an inheritance in the land of Canaan, which Eleazar the priest, Joshua son of Nun and the heads of the tribal clans of Israel allotted to them. 2 Their inheritances were assigned by lot to the nine and a half tribes, as the Lord had commanded through Moses. 3 Moses had granted the two and a half tribes their inheritance east of the Jordan but had not granted the Levites an inheritance among the rest, 4 for Joseph’s descendants had become two tribes—Manasseh and Ephraim. The Levites received no share of the land but only towns to live in, with pasturelands for their flocks and herds. 5 So the Israelites divided the land, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.
Now, here is where it starts to get tricky. These lands were given to the tribes, but said tribes were not always able to drive the natives off of their land.
Joshua 15
63 Judah could not dislodge the Jebusites, who were living in Jerusalem; to this day the Jebusites live there with the people of JudahJoshua 16
10 They did not dislodge the Canaanites living in Gezer; to this day the Canaanites live among the people of Ephraim but are required to do forced labor.Joshua 17
12 Yet the Manassites were not able to occupy these towns, for the Canaanites were determined to live in that region. 13 However, when the Israelites grew stronger, they subjected the Canaanites to forced labor but did not drive them out completely.
Now, wait one moment. It says that the people "live there with the people of Judah". Therefore, the people of Judah are living with them as well. This could be taken to mean that the people of Judah are in control, but simply didn't drive out the Jesubites. The next two passages more explicitly show this, in that the Israelites enslaved the locals. (Highly hypocrital and ironic, considering they were enslaved themselves not forty years before.) Ethics aside, the wording of these passages suggests that the Israelites did indeed hold control of these lands, fulfilling god's word.
There was at least one tribe, however, that did not get its fair share.
Joshua 17
14 The people of Joseph said to Joshua, “Why have you given us only one allotment and one portion for an inheritance? We are a numerous people, and the Lord has blessed us abundantly.”
15 “If you are so numerous,” Joshua answered, “and if the hill country of Ephraim is too small for you, go up into the forest and clear land for yourselves there in the land of the Perizzites and Rephaites.”
16 The people of Joseph replied, “The hill country is not enough for us, and all the Canaanites who live in the plain have chariots fitted with iron, both those in Beth Shan and its settlements and those in the Valley of Jezreel.”
17 But Joshua said to the tribes of Joseph—to Ephraim and Manasseh—“You are numerous and very powerful. You will have not only one allotment 18 but the forested hill country as well. Clear it, and its farthest limits will be yours; though the Canaanites have chariots fitted with iron and though they are strong, you can drive them out.”
In this passage we see reference to the infamous iron chariots. Joshua has promised them that they can claim the rest of the land that has already been promised to them. Keep in mind that god originally bestowed this land onto Joshua.
Joshua later tells the Israelites to claim the land that god has already promised them.
Joshua 18
3 So Joshua said to the Israelites: “How long will you wait before you begin to take possession of the land that the Lord, the God of your ancestors, has given you? 4 Appoint three men from each tribe. I will send them out to make a survey of the land and to write a description of it, according to the inheritance of each. Then they will return to me. 5 You are to divide the land into seven parts. Judah is to remain in its territory on the south and the tribes of Joseph in their territory on the north. 6 After you have written descriptions of the seven parts of the land, bring them here to me and I will cast lots for you in the presence of the Lord our God. 7 The Levites, however, do not get a portion among you, because the priestly service of the Lord is their inheritance. And Gad, Reuben and the half-tribe of Manasseh have already received their inheritance on the east side of the Jordan. Moses the servant of the Lord gave it to them.”
Here, Joshua further reiterates the fact that there is yet land within their promised boundaries to claim:
Joshua 23
23 After a long time had passed and the Lord had given Israel rest from all their enemies around them, Joshua, by then a very old man, 2 summoned all Israel—their elders, leaders, judges and officials—and said to them: “I am very old. 3 You yourselves have seen everything the Lord your God has done to all these nations for your sake; it was the Lord your God who fought for you. 4 Remember how I have allotted as an inheritance for your tribes all the land of the nations that remain—the nations I conquered—between the Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea in the west. 5 The Lord your God himself will push them out for your sake. He will drive them out before you, and you will take possession of their land, as the Lord your God promised you.
Now, we get to the iron chariots incident. After Joshua dies:
Judges 1
1 After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the Lord, “Who of us is to go up first to fight against the Canaanites?”
2 The Lord answered, “Judah shall go up; I have given the land into their hands.”3 The men of Judah then said to the Simeonites their fellow Israelites, “Come up with us into the territory allotted to us, to fight against the Canaanites. We in turn will go with you into yours.” So the Simeonites went with them.
Here, god has given Judah the duty of claiming the aforementioned lands in his name. And he does:
Judges 14 When Judah attacked, the Lord gave the Canaanites and Perizzites into their hands, and they struck down ten thousand men at Bezek. 5 It was there that they found Adoni-Bezek and fought against him, putting to rout the Canaanites and Perizzites. 6 Adoni-Bezek fled, but they chased him and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and big toes.
7 Then Adoni-Bezek said, “Seventy kings with their thumbs and big toes cut off have picked up scraps under my table. Now God has paid me back for what I did to them.” They brought him to Jerusalem, and he died there.
8 The men of Judah attacked Jerusalem also and took it. They put the city to the sword and set it on fire.
9 After that, Judah went down to fight against the Canaanites living in the hill country, the Negev and the western foothills. 10 They advanced against the Canaanites living in Hebron (formerly called Kiriath Arba) and defeated Sheshai, Ahiman and Talmai. 11 From there they advanced against the people living in Debir (formerly called Kiriath Sepher).
12 And Caleb said, “I will give my daughter Aksah in marriage to the man who attacks and captures Kiriath Sepher.” 13 Othniel son of Kenaz, Caleb’s younger brother, took it; so Caleb gave his daughter Aksah to him in marriage.
14 One day when she came to Othniel, she urged him[a] to ask her father for a field. When she got off her donkey, Caleb asked her, “What can I do for you?”
15 She replied, “Do me a special favor. Since you have given me land in the Negev, give me also springs of water.” So Caleb gave her the upper and lower springs.
16 The descendants of Moses’ father-in-law, the Kenite, went up from the City of Palms with the people of Judah to live among the inhabitants of the Desert of Judah in the Negev near Arad.
17 Then the men of Judah went with the Simeonites their fellow Israelites and attacked the Canaanites living in Zephath, and they totally destroyed[c] the city. Therefore it was called Hormah.[d] 18 Judah also took[e] Gaza, Ashkelon and Ekron—each city with its territory.
However, despite this, the chariots of iron are too much for god:
Quote:Judges 1:19 The Lord was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron.
And so...things fall apart. It appears that there is an error here; either god was less than omnipotent that day, or there is a mistake in the bible, and hence it is falliable.
However, it wouldn't be a good idea for me to end there. I will address the most likely rebuttals.
First: God was angry at Judah/Judah wasn't pious enough.
Now, there is evidence that if this were true, then Judah would certainly have failed:
[b]Joshua 24
19 Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the Lord. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. 20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you.”
God's character aside, this is pretty solid. However, god was not angry at Judah. God was angered once in the book of Joshua:
Joshua 7
7 But the Israelites were unfaithful in regard to the devoted things[a]; Achan son of Karmi, the son of Zimri, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took some of them. So the LORD’s anger burned against Israel.
3 When they returned to Joshua, they said, “Not all the army will have to go up against Ai. Send two or three thousand men to take it and do not weary the whole army, for only a few people live there.” 4 So about three thousand went up; but they were routed by the men of Ai, 5 who killed about thirty-six of them. They chased the Israelites from the city gate as far as the stone quarries and struck them down on the slopes. At this the hearts of the people melted in fear and became like water.
However, this was resolved when Achan was executed:
25 Joshua said, “Why have you brought this trouble on us? The LORD will bring trouble on you today.”
Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them. 26 Over Achan they heaped up a large pile of rocks, which remains to this day. [b]Then the LORD turned from his fierce anger. Therefore that place has been called the Valley of Achor[f] ever since.
The other time that the Israelites might have angered god was:
Joshua 22
15 When they went to Gilead—to Reuben, Gad and the half-tribe of Manasseh—they said to them: 16 “The whole assembly of the Lord says: ‘How could you break faith with the God of Israel like this? How could you turn away from the Lord and build yourselves an altar in rebellion against him now? 17 Was not the sin of Peor enough for us? Up to this very day we have not cleansed ourselves from that sin, even though a plague fell on the community of the Lord! 18 And are you now turning away from the Lord?
“‘If you rebel against the Lord today, tomorrow he will be angry with the whole community of Israel. 19 If the land you possess is defiled, come over to the Lord’s land, where the Lord’s tabernacle stands, and share the land with us. But do not rebel against the Lord or against us by building an altar for yourselves, other than the altar of the Lord our God. 20 When Achan son of Zerah was unfaithful in regard to the devoted things,[a] did not wrath come on the whole community of Israel? He was not the only one who died for his sin.’”
However, this was explained, and found not to be an offense to god.
Joshua 2230 When Phinehas the priest and the leaders of the community—the heads of the clans of the Israelites—heard what Reuben, Gad and Manasseh had to say, they were pleased. 31 And Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, said to Reuben, Gad and Manasseh, “Today we know that the Lord is with us, because you have not been unfaithful to the Lord in this matter. Now you have rescued the Israelites from the Lord’s hand.”
32 Then Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, and the leaders returned to Canaan from their meeting with the Reubenites and Gadites in Gilead and reported to the Israelites. 33 They were glad to hear the report and praised God. And they talked no more about going to war against them to devastate the country where the Reubenites and the Gadites lived.
34 And the Reubenites and the Gadites gave the altar this name: A Witness Between Us—that the Lord is God.
If god had been angry with Judah, he would not have let him conquer so many lands before failing to defeat the Cannanites with iron chariots.
I know that someone mentioned a treaty at some point, and I would like to point out that said treaty was with the Gibeonites.
Joshua 9
16 Three days after they made the treaty with the Gibeonites, the Israelites heard that they were neighbors, living near them. 17 So the Israelites set out and on the third day came to their cities: Gibeon, Kephirah, Beeroth and Kiriath Jearim. 18 But the Israelites did not attack them, because the leaders of the assembly had sworn an oath to them by the LORD, the God of Israel.
The whole assembly grumbled against the leaders, 19 but all the leaders answered, “We have given them our oath by the LORD, the God of Israel, and we cannot touch them now. 20 This is what we will do to them: We will let them live, so that God’s wrath will not fall on us for breaking the oath we swore to them.” 21 They continued, “Let them live, but let them be woodcutters and water carriers in the service of the whole assembly.” So the leaders’ promise to them was kept.
So there was no treaty either. The passage gives the reason "because they had chariots fitted with iron". The reason for Judah's failure is right in the passage. So, knowing that god had promised the land to Judah, that he had said that he would deliver the land to them, that he was not angry with Judaj, and that Judah had not treaty with those people, what option is left? Distorting the meaning of the passage, of course.
The three examples given above of lands where the natives were not driven out had disclaimers showing how those people were living alongside the Israelites, but the passage about the iron chariots says no such thing. Thus, it is only reasonable to conclude that what is written is what is meant. God could not defeat iron chariots in the bible, and god is omnipotent, therefore the bible is falliable.
TL;DR vesrion: the accounts in Joshua clearly indicate that god had promised that land to the Israelites, and that he ws not angry with them. Yet, Judah still couldn't win, so there is a biblical error regarding god's omnipotence.
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
@ Darkstar, thank you for reading the scriptures, this makes it easier to have a discussion. I did notice that you said you read the first chapter of Judges, I believe I asked if you would read the first four chapters. I also noticed you had no comment on Judges, the reason for reading Judges is this, God being omniscient knew that the Israelites would not trust Him in all things and disobey Him. So, in Judges we are told that some of the peoples of the land were spared to be a punishment to Israel for their disobedience.
This is why the Judah could not defeat the iron clad chariots, not because God could not do it, because He would not do it. I know it says God was with Judah, this necessarily does not mean He would give them complete success after they disobeyed Him, however He did not allow them to be defeated and did give over all the land and peoples to them. Also the people who were defeated were not made slaves in the sense we know of slavery.
Chernobyl is the Russian word for wormwood, it carries the same meaning, bitter. Bitter is another word to describe water that is unfit to drink. Chernobyl = wormwood= bitter.
I'm not trying to tell you that Chernobyl is the completion of the third trumpet, what I was trying to say was that God works through man to complete His will. God does not tell the men who wrote the scriptures exactly what to write, could you see the expression on John's face when God explained what a nuclear reactor was, he may not have written anything and though God to be crazy. If the third trumpet was Chernobyl all John could do is explain what he saw with the knowledge he had of the world during his life. So many people want to apply the ways and things of today to ancient writings and that just does not work, and people want to apply science to a book about the supernatural and it just want work because we do not know in our limited knowledge how to do that. Any way I was trying to show that God did not write the Bible, He inspired the writers and they wrote what they understood or saw in dreams.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(November 2, 2012 at 6:51 am)Godschild Wrote: @ Darkstar, thank you for reading the scriptures, this makes it easier to have a discussion. I did notice that you said you read the first chapter of Judges, I believe I asked if you would read the first four chapters. I also noticed you had no comment on Judges, the reason for reading Judges is this, God being omniscient knew that the Israelites would not trust Him in all things and disobey Him. So, in Judges we are told that some of the peoples of the land were spared to be a punishment to Israel for their disobedience.
This is why the Judah could not defeat the iron clad chariots, not because God could not do it, because He would not do it. I know it says God was with Judah, this necessarily does not mean He would give them complete success after they disobeyed Him, however He did not allow them to be defeated and did give over all the land and peoples to them.
Hmm, yes, shortly after posting I read chapter two of Judges and figured you would use it against me. However, the events in Judges two should not apply here.Judges 2:6-15
Disobedience and Defeat 6 After Joshua had dismissed the Israelites, they went to take possession of the land, each to their own inheritance. 7 The people served the Lord throughout the lifetime of Joshua and of the elders who outlived him and who had seen all the great things the Lord had done for Israel.
8 Joshua son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, died at the age of a hundred and ten. 9 And they buried him in the land of his inheritance, at Timnath Heres in the hill country of Ephraim, north of Mount Gaash.
10 After that whole generation had been gathered to their ancestors, another generation grew up who knew neither the Lord nor what he had done for Israel. 11 Then the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the Lord and served the Baals. 12 They forsook the Lord, the God of their ancestors, who had brought them out of Egypt. They followed and worshiped various gods of the peoples around them. They aroused the Lord’s anger 13 because they forsook him and served Baal and the Ashtoreths. 14 In his anger against Israel the Lord gave them into the hands of raiders who plundered them. He sold them into the hands of their enemies all around, whom they were no longer able to resist. 15 Whenever Israel went out to fight, the hand of the Lord was against them to defeat them, just as he had sworn to them. They were in great distress. (bolding added)
As is clear in the bolded portion, the disobedience to god occured after Joshua's entire generation, which would have included Judah, had "gone to their ancestors (died). Therefore god would have had to be punidhing Judah preemptively for things that would not even occur during his lifetime in order for yours to be a valid conclusion. You are correct that god punished the Israelites for their transgressions, but only after Judah was already dead.
(November 2, 2012 at 6:51 am)Godschild Wrote: Also the people who were defeated were not made slaves in the sense we know of slavery.
Indentured servant
It was more like indentured servitude which is...slavery with a time limit. You could still legally beat indentured servants to death. God even specifically made provisions to punish people if their slaves died from a beating within 24 hours. Jesus also made a comment about slave beating, saying that slaves who didn't know what they did wrong should not be beaten as harshly (but can still be beaten) as those who did. It was still quite brutal.
(November 2, 2012 at 6:51 am)Godschild Wrote: I'm not trying to tell you that Chernobyl is the completion of the third trumpet, what I was trying to say was that God works through man to complete His will.
Okay, then. But, if it is not the third trumpet, then what is it? In the bible it was the third trumpet, so if you are attributing it to god, then why are you not using the specific biblical account about it, even though you are borrowing the name and description from said account? (and why Russian?)
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
@ Darkstar, yes they did disobey, they disobeyed a Jericho, God had told them through Moses they were not to leave anyone alive in the lands He was giving them, nor were they to make deals with any of the peoples of the land. Yet before they took Jericho they made a deal with Rahab, the deal was to spare her life and the life of her family. So in on fail swoop they made a deal and it was of all things to spare lives.
About Chernobyl, I used it to show how so many could over look prophesy, some of the prophesy will be great events and dismissed and some will be news worthy and go unnoticed. Why Russian, why English or many of the languages that did not exist then. The Russians who read the prophesy had no problem understanding Chernobyl meant bitter, my thought is why would the Russians call a nuclear reactor bitter, puzzling IMO.
The second trumpet could be WWII, the mountain could have been the atomic bomb, the bloody sea could have very well been D-Day, the ocean was red with blood for a great distance, and it was so bloody many sea creatures died. There were 135,000 ships of different kinds involved in WWII and 36,000 were destroyed or made useless. This great event has not been considered by most as the second trumpet and I'm not saying it is for a fact, it does however fit.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
November 8, 2012 at 10:45 pm (This post was last modified: November 8, 2012 at 10:45 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 8, 2012 at 3:19 am)Godschild Wrote: @ Darkstar, yes they did disobey, they disobeyed a Jericho, God had told them through Moses they were not to leave anyone alive in the lands He was giving them, nor were they to make deals with any of the peoples of the land. Yet before they took Jericho they made a deal with Rahab, the deal was to spare her life and the life of her family. So in on fail swoop they made a deal and it was of all things to spare lives.
Oh the fucking horror...those evil sons of bitches...
Lint clusters in your drier probably "fit" prophecy GC...I've gotta say, I'm completely underwhelmed here....
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