What do you do in Heaven?

[Godscreated]

What ever it is God has for us will be of total joy, just because your insignificant brain can not grasp the greatness of God does not mean His infinite wisdom will not have great and infinite things to enjoy.

Total joy? Who is defining joy? What then is total joy?

Who the fuck are you to proclaim that another human brain is 'insignificant'? I suppose you assume your brain to be significant. A convenient and meaningless distinction.

Your infinite wise god is second rate. A proper god would have no problem creating obedient humans. Your god's fucking book proves my point.

You might get a few more replies from me if you were not so hateful, yes I see you as hateful. My mind, yours and everyone else combined are insignificant compared to the omniscience of God.

[Cato]

You might get a few more replies from me if you were not so hateful, yes I see you as hateful. My mind, yours and everyone else combined are insignificant compared to the omniscience of God.

Praytell, how was I hatefull? After all, I'm not the asshole that relegates people that disagree with my delusions to an eternal torment. We'll leave this loving non-hateful social mechanism to the christians, but god loves you/me/him/her/it/etc..

In a real conversation this is the point in which you proclaim you hate the sin, but not the sinner. Here's the problem with this bit of PC bullshit....is it me or my sin that gets to burn in hell forever?

[Cyberman]

Hey Stimbo!

Hey there!

Thanks for starting up this thread....I've read some of your more recent posts and you seem to alluding to a conflict in the proposed ideas about heaven. It's probably my fault, but I've reread some of the post and I'm unable to follow. Can you name them explicitly?

Probably, but I'm loath to go back through five pages and pick them out. At least there are only the five. The gist of it as I recall is that you are proposing a scenario wherein Heaven is a rebooted Earthly kingdom with no sin, free will etc. John V seems to indicate Heaven as being a state of exploring the Universe (incidentally, upon reflection I concede you are correct, John, that I was missing the point on this; no doubt I still am). In all fairness, you backed up your scenario with scriptural references, whereas the other one was supported solely by a pastor's musings - which is a fantastic name for a pub - on Carl Sagan's magnum opus Contact; a film I am only periphally aware of, based on a book I have never read, to my shame.

There was probably more to this than what I just related. However, it's all on record.

It may be naive of me but the traditional picture of Heaven is a place where the saved go after shuffling off this mortal coil.

Well, that's just a temporary fix if you will. The eventual heaven is a restored earth. The concept your referring to is what happens before the grand finale.

So Heaven is, at the moment, vacant of erstwhile Earthly tenants? I've actually heard this concept before, that nobody is in Heaven because Heaven is yet to be established.

If there is to be no sin etc, then surely that infringes upon the free will of the heavenly tenants, since they will be unable even to commit a sin even accidentally?

You are correct, "free will" in heaven will not entail the ability to choose sin.

However Christians long for the day when they don't have to struggle to do the right thing...they will always want and be able to do the right thing.

As with the point about being programmed to be content with one's lot, this sounds like a very good definition of Hell to me. I am merely a humble and godforsaken atheist, certainly no saint, yet I don't have to struggle to do the right thing. As a matter of fact, I don't even think about it, I can just do it automatically. I don't consider myself as having some special abilities in this area that others do not.

A couple of thoughts occur, adjacent to the main topic at hand so I wouldn't press for answers. Firstly, wouldn't this mean that "God" is okay with mind-control? Also, if this is so, why can't - or doesn't - "God" impose such control over its creations now, from wherever it resides, thus eradicating sin forever? Be warned, answering "free will" takes us into Orwellian doublethink territory.

Second, why would xtians want this so badly? Whenever I've come across discussions about dictatorial regimes and thought crime legislation, xtians are among those who (rightly) condemn such things. What makes this stuff an abhorrent evil on Earth, yet such a longed-for blessing in Heaven?

Worse, they can only act in ways that accord with your god's "glory", worshipping it for all eternity, which as I stated upfront is a hell of a long time - a kind of infinity.

That's actually not a new thing...the Bible teaches that on this earth now all things (in the grand scheme) work for the glory of God. Heaven will be the same.

I'm not going to point out that the bible doesn't teach anything, being a vastly overrated book (bugger, too late). I just want to ask what, then, is the need of Heaven?

A case in point can be lifted directly from your post. You say that "there will no longer be marriages, we will be more like you would imagine angels to be....completely content in our singleness". I was never content being single even before meeting up with my beloved Princess; I most certainly am not now after having her stolen from me. Obviously, there is little chance of my being considered for this new kingdom, since as an unbeliever I commit the one unforgivable sin. However, assuming for the moment that I do qualify for the housing list, I am to remain in this distressingly single state forever. Any version of me that has been reprogrammed so as accept this unhappy state is not going to be a me that anyone of my acquaintance is going to recognise, least of all me.

I'm sorry to hear that Stimbo.

I don't think you'd be content even if she came back though. I wrote about it here - http://www.morethanmorality.blogspot.com...idols.html

This was not intended to engender sympathy (thank you, by the way), nor was I expecting it to be used as a witnessing opportunity. The whole point of my words hinged on the issue of reprogramming, not my personal circumstances. Maybe it was my fault for mentioning them in the first place, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't do this again. Ok?

I'm interested too in how you expect businesses to work with all sin nullified. Aren't the overwhelming majority of businesses dependent on such 'sins' as greed, envy, lust perhaps? Even those ultra-rare businesses that might exist which operate on co-operative principles rely on a rigidly-defined system of demarcation, an us-and-them setup, which must inevitably lead to resentment of sorts between management and staff. I fear that such answers that may be offered for these matters are going to boil down at some point to 'godwillsit' or similar.

It is often that business do run on greed, but in heaven greed won't be something that one would have to struggle with. Businesses could be operated for the benefit fo the whole.
[/hide]

I'd very much like to see the mechanics of this demonstrated, or rather illustrated. Simply throwing in a "could" at strategic locations doesn't necessarily make the whole thing work. I "could" suddenly decide to jack it all in and become a devout xtian. It's not going to happen, though.

[Welsh cake]

25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together. The lion will eat hay like a cow. But the snakes will eat dust.

Screw this talk of god and heaven for a minute.

If you honestly think those things will come to pass, i.e. carnivores eating hay or dust, then you're a bigger idiot than we thought Jeff.

We're not told much about it. My pastor speculates that some of us will be explorers, and that's part of the reason god made the universe so big (it will be replaced, presumably with something as big or bigger). Of course that would only be for those interested in doing it.

How is that interesting? Why not make the cosmos bigger and more vast and bigger more vast and BIGGER AND MORE VAST, until you become even more and more and MORE tiny and insignificant than you already currently are. What's the bloody point in that?

You might get a few more replies from me if you were not so hateful, yes I see you as hateful.

Go fuck yourself.

[Minimalist]

I said God might give me a galaxy to care for, not run, there's a great difference.

Then I wouldn't trust your fucking god to hire greeters at WalMart. What an asshole that guy is.

[Godscreated]

You might get a few more replies from me if you were not so hateful, yes I see you as hateful. My mind, yours and everyone else combined are insignificant compared to the omniscience of God.

Praytell, how was I hatefull? After all, I'm not the asshole that relegates people that disagree with my delusions to an eternal torment. We'll leave this loving non-hateful social mechanism to the christians, but god loves you/me/him/her/it/etc..

In a real conversation this is the point in which you proclaim you hate the sin, but not the sinner. Here's the problem with this bit of PC bullshit....is it me or my sin that gets to burn in hell forever?

I do not relegate anyone to eternal punishment, the choice lies in you it's all about what you want, eternal life or eternal punishment. I do not believe in a firey hell, it will be even worse. A place that is dark, where you are alone yet can hear the anguish of others, where nothing but hate will be your only companion, no one to console you, no fire just evil.

[Cyberman]

Omigosh - not Tipton!

[runs screaming into the cold, cold night]

[Reasonable_Jeff]

So Heaven is, at the moment, vacant of erstwhile Earthly tenants? I've actually heard this concept before, that nobody is in Heaven because Heaven is yet to be established.

Heaven currently contains the souls of the saved. That party would be brought down here to Earth when all is said and done.

[Gooders1002]

Praytell, how was I hatefull? After all, I'm not the asshole that relegates people that disagree with my delusions to an eternal torment. We'll leave this loving non-hateful social mechanism to the christians, but god loves you/me/him/her/it/etc..

In a real conversation this is the point in which you proclaim you hate the sin, but not the sinner. Here's the problem with this bit of PC bullshit....is it me or my sin that gets to burn in hell forever?

I do not relegate anyone to eternal punishment, the choice lies in you it's all about what you want, eternal life or eternal punishment. I do not believe in a firey hell, it will be even worse. A place that is dark, where you are alone yet can hear the anguish of others, where nothing but hate will be your only companion, no one to console you, no fire just evil.

I could live with that, I am alone and hate myself anyway. Although that's sounds like a upgrade from the roasting in a oven forever 'theory' (i use that term very very loosely).

[Kousbroek]

I do not relegate anyone to eternal punishment, the choice lies in you it's all about what you want, eternal life or eternal punishment. I do not believe in a firey hell, it will be even worse. A place that is dark, where you are alone yet can hear the anguish of others, where nothing but hate will be your only companion, no one to console you, no fire just evil.