Without citing the bible, what marks the bible as the one book with God's message?

[ronedee]

First off... I made comparisons in "MY LIFE". I never said anything about anyone else outside my family.

You stated that your father's lack of faith is the reason for his unhappiness, which has broader implications, namely that a lack of faith causes unhappiness in general. Or are you now saying that your father cannot cope without faith but others can?

Regardless, you have yet to answer the question that if faith is so important to happiness, how can atheists be happy, and how can those with faith be miserable.

I also said that my father disagrees with my assessment....but again, that is a personal statement I made. I know my dad...YOU DON'T!

There are reasons why I believe that it is true! My father wasn't always an Atheist. And we were a happy family at that time. There is more, but it's kind of personal. I didn't make any blanket statements about Atheists being unhappy as a group! So, I'll say it AGAIN... YMMV!

All I know is what works for me. If we met at the bar, like I do with my Atheist family and friends we wouldn't be accusing each other of things that we believe...or don't for that matter!

It can be intense once in a while with my counterparts...but our love for each other transcends our belief systems...especially in a crisis or when we need each other.

I have an open mind when it comes to ideas, for and against my beliefs. If for anything...to at least fortify them! I just don't understand the logic in lashing out that most of you take?

It feels like hate, or fear. Can there ever be a quiet, calm, unaccusative, unassuming conversation around here?

['d like to get yours, and others ideas, and put accross some of my own in a logical way]..but we can't seem to get to first base!

And when I mention the aforementioned statement...All I get back is "it's my fault"!

Sure I can get hot! I can only take so much before I boil-over. I can take the heat...but some of it is pure puke! I'm basically a kind person who can communicate pretty well on most issues. I'm looking for that back.

A few have told me I'm on ignore. And also that I don't belong here. Ok, then what is "Christianity" doing on the forum heading? Is it just for smearing, or a general dumping ground for anti's? Would it be better to NOT have Christians here? Or again, is it fear that your non-belief system will be shaken?

That's what it feels like! And if the concensus is for me to leave then sobeit! There is nothing I can learn from closed minded people. And we're wasting time and words.

[Ryantology]

But, at least you have a stationary target. I do not....because every Atheist has his own "non" belief system.

There's no such thing as a 'non-belief system'. There's nothing systemic about not believing. There are no rules to follow, no rituals to undertake, and no organization which claims to speak for us. Anything I, Zen Badger, Faith No More or any of the rest of us have in common beyond not believing in gods is completely coincidental.

That's what makes it hard to communicate with Atheists! We have to first figure out what form of hate they have. Just look at all the different replies I get! And each one of you disects my statements differently!

I do not hate God because God is a fiction, though I often make arguments with the assumption that he is real. If God was real, I would most certainly hate him, and I'll save you the trouble of figuring out why: the God in your bible is a worse, more pervasive, more destructive evil than any other mankind has yet to invent. He demonstrates every single one of humanity's worst, most heinous criminal traits, while almost never demonstrating any of humanity's better ones. The world is bad enough when it's only filled with people who think he's real. If he actually was, human existence would be one stagnant, endless nightmare of spiritual slavery to a being which is depicted as reveling in bloodshed and misery. You can tell who hasn't read the Bible, ever; they're the ones who think Jesus is your bud and wants to play hockey with your kids.

Also, most of those who do believe in God are not making the most trouble in the world....at least not the ones who believe in Christianity!

Christians in America are, as a group, responsible for much of the reparable ills in America, which has ripple effects on the entire world (many of them negative). Of course, other faiths like Islam are even worse and more actively threatening to humanity, but I wonder how gay people in Uganda feel now that their government, with the blessings of Christian leaders (and the churches) are about to unleash completely legal genocide upon them.

And, if there's one thing the Bible teaches us, it is that God has a real hardon for genocide.

[Faith No More]

I have an open mind when it comes to ideas, for and against my beliefs. If for anything...to at least fortify them! I just don't understand the logic in lashing out that most of you take?

Well, don't reply to the ones you feel are lashing out. I can only speak for myself, but there has been no hostility from me in this thread. I have simply asked you questions about the implications of your statements. Your rant, however, makes me think that you are only focusing on negativity and ignoring any attempt at a reasonable conversation.

All I would like to know is how do you fit the fact that people can be happy without faith into your beliefs.

[ronedee]

But, at least you have a stationary target. I do not....because every Atheist has his own "non" belief system.

There's no such thing as a 'non-belief system'. There's nothing systemic about not believing. There are no rules to follow, no rituals to undertake, and no organization which claims to speak for us. Anything I, Zen Badger, Faith No More or any of the rest of us have in common beyond not believing in gods is completely coincidental.

This is easy for you to say! But it is true that there is NO formula besides the fact of "non-belief". Anything goes after that actually! And you purposely missed my point. As Christians we are on the same page.

That's what makes it hard to communicate with Atheists! We have to first figure out what form of hate they have. Just look at all the different replies I get! And each one of you disects my statements differently!

I do not hate God because God is a fiction, though I often make arguments with the assumption that he is real. If God was real, I would most certainly hate him, and I'll save you the trouble of figuring out why: the God in your bible is a worse, more pervasive, more destructive evil than any other mankind has yet to invent. He demonstrates every single one of humanity's worst, most heinous criminal traits, while almost never demonstrating any of humanity's better ones. The world is bad enough when it's only filled with people who think he's real. If he actually was, human existence would be one stagnant, endless nightmare of spiritual slavery to a being which is depicted as reveling in bloodshed and misery. You can tell who hasn't read the Bible, ever; they're the ones who think Jesus is your bud and wants to play hockey with your kids.

What are you talking about?! Some....most...here....have said that "men" wrote the bible! So.... has God, if He does exist really weighed in on anything personally? Only through men! And that can be tanited as we've learned.

And you can't be talking about the Gospel, in the Bible! That message is very clear!! LOVE is the message.

Also, most of those who do believe in God are not making the most trouble in the world....at least not the ones who believe in Christianity!

Christians in America are, as a group, responsible for much of the reparable ills in America, which has ripple effects on the entire world (many of them negative). Of course, other faiths like Islam are even worse and more actively threatening to humanity, but I wonder how gay people in Uganda feel now that their government, with the blessings of Christian leaders (and the churches) are about to unleash completely legal genocide upon them.

And, if there's one thing the Bible teaches us, it is that God has a real hardon for genocide.

Again the "old testament", which is about Law. I wasn't there, so I can't comment on what happened, and why. It could all be just a "story" as many A's say it is!

The Gospel is the important section of the Bible. And do Christians in Uganda, or anywhere follow Jesus' Word to the letter? NO!!

So again, what "man" does is what man does. Blame it on just about any reason you'd like! Or any religion you'd like! Are there more Atheist killers than Christian killers? Recently there are! But I won't consider YOU in that group of nutz!

And again...God hasn't said much to us about why! But if you did believe as I do that He exists...I'm sure He will have the answers. After all...He is God!

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."

So we are constantly on the parallels of our existance, you and I. There is no common ground because it's about what you see. I can respect that in certain ways.

Unfortunately, I won't recieve that respect back. Because there is nothing inside besides a pumping heart, and a ticking brain that refuses anything other than its own purpose.

But wait! There is LOVE! For friends, family, a new baby! And all that is GOOD.

But wait again! You can't see Love... at least it's make-up in our pysche.....You need to find it, and to feel it, and give it, to actually receive it. Hmmmmm

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I have an open mind when it comes to ideas, for and against my beliefs. If for anything...to at least fortify them! I just don't understand the logic in lashing out that most of you take?

Well, don't reply to the ones you feel are lashing out. I can only speak for myself, but there has been no hostility from me in this thread. I have simply asked you questions about the implications of your statements. Your rant, however, makes me think that you are only focusing on negativity and ignoring any attempt at a reasonable conversation.

All I would like to know is how do you fit the fact that people can be happy without faith into your beliefs.

OK! I'll take your advice!

And, I don't think that people need faith to be happy!

I think they need faith to be saved!

You and others think we as Christians are "fooling ourselves". Well, I know a lot of happy fools!

And every person I know that has a close relationship with God has Hope, even in the face of disaster!

"Everything works for Good, for those that Love the Lord."

I'm certain they are out there somewhere....but I don't know a lot of happy people w/o God. Some in my own family! And NOT necessarily the Atheists!

And you won't find me making that mistake again!

[Ryantology]

---

This is easy for you to say! But it is true that there is NO formula besides the fact of "non-belief". Anything goes after that actually! And you purposely missed my point.

Perhaps because you didn't clarify it enough. What is your point?

As Christians we are on the same page.

According to Wikipedia, there are over 41,000 denominations of Christianity. That is more pages than you'll find in an encyclopedia set.

What are you talking about?! Some....most...here....have said that "men" wrote the bible! So.... has God, if He does exist really weighed in on anything personally? Only through men! And that can be tanited as we've learned.

The bible says that God used to weigh in personally with considerable frequency. For some reason, that doesn't happen anymore.

And you can't be talking about the Gospel, in the Bible! That message is very clear!! LOVE is the message.

Did you know that the Gospels mention Hell 18 times? The entirety of the NT warns of it at least 160 times. LOVE ME OR SUFFER FOREVER is the message.

Again the "old testament", which is about Law. I wasn't there, so I can't comment on what happened, and why. It could all be just a "story" as many A's say it is!

How good is a God whose law is "make rape slaves of conquered virgins"? It is all a story, of course. But if even you believe that parts of the bible are made-up, why believe any of it?

The OT is not invalid. Jesus commands everyone to follow it to the letter. Matthew 5:17-20:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

The Gospel is the important section of the Bible. And do Christians in Uganda, or anywhere follow Jesus' Word to the letter? NO!!

They are abiding by that horrible command in Leviticus to kill gays. Christ said that old law was never repealed.

So again, what "man" does is what man does. Blame it on just about any reason you'd like! Or any religion you'd like! Are there more Atheist killers than Christian killers? Recently there are!

This is certainly false.

And again...God hasn't said much to us about why! But if you did believe as I do that He exists...I'm sure He will have the answers. After all...He is God!

If you don't believe, as I do not, you can start solving the problems yourself instead of waiting forever for God to handle it for you. Because he never has, and never will.

Unfortunately, I won't recieve that respect back. Because there is nothing inside besides a pumping heart, and a ticking brain that refuses anything other than its own purpose.

No. The difference is, I can enjoy fiction and imagination without having to pretend it is anything more than that.

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[Faith No More]

And, I don't think that people need faith to be happy!

Well, then what makes you think your father is unhappy because of his lack of faith?

[Mark 13:13]

There is nothing in the bible that marks the book out as the one book with God's message, it also depends on which bible you talk about, what sets the Bible as the one book with God,s message for a catholic is that the Church who we believe to be the primary authority on the matter using its own criteria to assess many books
decided that these were the books it firmly believed to be divinely inspired. It does not within this context say with authority that these are the only books but rather these are the ones that it accepts as divinely inspired. So there is no onus for anyone outside of the Church or no logical reason for anyone outside of the church to accept this, the choice is theirs and theirs alone.

[The Grand Nudger]

An honest assessment if ever there were one, belief sans reason. You could probably trim the "outside of the Church" bit out you know.

[Cyberman]

Interesting god you have there; one that has a message vital to humanity yet allows it to be hidden amongst many different 'holy' books all vying to be the One True Message, not to mention further hidden amongst thousands of denominations and sects all competing to be the One True Faith. If I were compelled to have a god, I'd prefer one much more honest than to play Find The Lady on a cosmic scale.

[Mark 13:13]

Interesting god you have there; one that has a message vital to humanity yet allows it to be hidden amongst many different 'holy' books all vying to be the One True Message, not to mention further hidden amongst thousands of denominations and sects all competing to be the One True Faith. If I were compelled to have a god, I'd prefer one much more honest than to play Find The Lady on a cosmic scale.

Yes very interesting, and as you belief that My God is an illusion/delusion so you have a luxury I do not; you can if you choose make up a god that you find appealing and choose to believe in that if you want you lucky boy. but the answer I gave on the point of the thread is still my answer.