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Quote:The verse says “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth”.
My question to you brother. Does this verse stop here? No it doesnt. It continues and gives the actual reason as to the fighting. This is the continuation: – “until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”.
my question to you my brother is, did i say the verse ended it at that point? no.
did i actually quote the entire verse just like you did? yes
that was my actual point, the latter part of the verse is just as bad because its saying fight them until they pay protection tax.
Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.
January 20, 2013 at 3:54 pm (This post was last modified: January 20, 2013 at 4:33 pm by Confused Ape.)
(January 20, 2013 at 2:53 pm)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote: Surah 5:51. This question was raised and has been answered by a scholar(Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi) who graduated from Medina University in the field of Arabic and Islamic Studies. It reads:
if those are the same jihad tactics used by muhammed and his followers i can think of a few good tactics to defeat any muslim army.
have soldiers comprised only of women since they are forbidden to be hurt ever, hide inprivate property whenever you feel threatened by bombs.
Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.
(January 20, 2013 at 3:46 pm)killybob Wrote: @ThatMuslimGuy and paulpablo
You write way too much. I greatly respect those who actually read your points before responding to them, as I bet even Allah would bore himself to tears trying to plough through that wall of text. Please try to make your arguments more concise. It will save you, as well as a great many others, a lot of time, and your point will be all the more poignant.
I'm sure that was a good argument you made there, but I for one COULD NOT BE FUCKED TO READ IT.
sorry to be a little insulting, but I just don't have time to read massive walls of text all day long, and I do want to be a part of the argument.
I think you'd be greatly disappointed with what remains after you remove all the fluff, irrelevancies and nonsense. For instance, that wall of text on the first sura he defended amounts to a bare assertion that it means patron rather than friend, followed by some more bare assertion in the guise of some other Muslims attempting to pretend they knew what the mind of God was in dictating the term.
At least Drich's arguments have some meat on them.
January 20, 2013 at 5:29 pm (This post was last modified: January 20, 2013 at 5:56 pm by ThatMuslimGuy.)
(January 20, 2013 at 3:43 pm)paulpablo Wrote:
(January 20, 2013 at 2:53 pm)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote:
Surah 5:51. This question was raised and has been answered by a scholar(Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi) who graduated from Medina University in the field of Arabic and Islamic Studies. It reads:
"In The Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
Dear questioner, thank you very much for having confidence in us, and we hope our efforts, which are purely for Allah's Sake, meet your expectations.
In the first place, we would like to stress that Islam urges all Muslims to deal kindly and justly with all people. Muslims should have good relations with all people. At school, at work, in your neighborhood, etc., you should be kind and courteous to everyone. Muslims are allowed to have non-Muslims as friends as long as they keep their own faith and commitment to Islam pure and strong. Allah has clearly forbidden Muslim from fighting those who fight not their faith or drive them out from their homes. Referring to this, [Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them. For Allah loves those who are just. Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for your faith, and drive you out of your homes and support others in driving you out, from turning to them for protection (or taking them as wali). Those who seek their protection they are indeed wrong- doers.] (Al-Mumtahinah 60: 8-9)
In his response to the question, Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, former president of the Islamic Society of North America, states the following:
The Qur'an does not say that non-Muslims cannot be Muslims' friends, nor does it forbid Muslims to be friendly to non-Muslims. There are many non-Muslims who are good friends of Muslim individuals and the Muslim community. There are also many good Muslims who truly and sincerely observe their faith and are very friendly to many non-Muslims at the same time.
Islam teaches us that we should be friendly to all people. Islam teaches us that we should deal even with our enemies with justice and fairness. Allah says in the Qur'an in the beginning of the same Surat Al-Ma’dah: [O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.] (Al-Ma’dah 5 :8)
In another place in the Qur'an, Allah Almighty says:
[Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them. For Allah loves those who are just. Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for your faith, and drive you out of your homes and support others in driving you out, from turning to them for protection (or taking them as wali). Those who seek their protection they are indeed wrong- doers.] (Al-Mumtahinah 60: 8-9)
Moreover, Allah Almighty has described Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) as "a mercy" to the worlds. He was a sign of Allah's Mercy to all, Muslims as well as non-Muslims. In his kindness and fair treatment he did not make any difference between the believers and non-believers. He was kind to the pagans of Makkah and fought them only when they fought him. He made treaties with the Jews of Madinah and honored the treaties until they broke them.
He (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have received the Christians of Najran with kindness in his Masjid in Madinah. They argued with him about Islam, but he returned them with honor and respect. There are many examples from his life that show that he was the friendliest person to all people.
In the verse you quoted, the word "Awliya" is used. It is a plural and its singular is "wali". The correct translation of the word ""wali"" is not "friend" but it is someone who is very close and intimate. It is also used to mean "guardian, protector, patron, lord and master".
In the Qur'an this word is used for God, such as [Allah is the Protector (or Lord and Master) of those who believe. He takes them out from the depths of darkness to light…] (Al- Baqarah 2: 257)
There are many other references in the Qur'an that give this meaning. The same word is also sometimes used in the Qur'an for human beings, such as [And whosoever is killed unjustly, We have granted his next kin "wali" the authority (to seek judgement or punishment in this case)…] (Al-‘Isra' 17 :33)
The correct translation of the verse in Surat Al-Ma’idah is: [O you who believe! Do not take Jews and Christians as your patrons. They are patrons of their own people. He among you who will turn to them for patronage is one of them. Verily Allah guides not a people unjust.] (Al-Ma'dah 5: 51)
It is obvious that Jews patronize the Jews and Christians patronize the Christians, so why not Muslims patronize Muslims and support their own people. This verse is not telling us to be against Jews or Christians, but it is telling us that we should take care of our own people and we must support each other.
In his Tafsir, (Qur’an exegesis) Imam Ibn Kathir has mentioned that some scholars say that this verse (i.e. the one you referred to) was revealed after the Battle of Uhud when Muslims had a set back. At that time, a Muslim from Madinah said, "I am going to live with Jews so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah." And another person said, "I am going to live with Christians so I shall be safe in case another attack comes on Madinah." So Allah revealed this verse reminding the believers that they should not seek the protection from others, but should protect each other. (See Ibn Kathir, Al-Tafsir, vol. 2, p. 68)
Muslims are allowed to have non-Muslims as friends as long as they keep their own faith and commitment to Islam pure and strong. You are correct in pointing out that a Muslim man is also allowed to marry a Jewish or Christian woman. It is obvious that one marries someone for love and friendship. If friendship between Muslims and Jews or Christians was forbidden, then why would Islam allow a Muslim man to marry a Jew or Christian woman? It is the duty of Muslims to patronize Muslims. They should not patronize any one who is against their faith or who fights their faith, even if they were their fathers and brothers. Allah says: [O you who believe! Take not for protectors (awliya') your fathers and your brothers if they love unbelief above faith. If any of you do so, they are indeed wrong-doers.] (Al-Tawbah 9: 23)
In a similar way, the Qur'an also tells Muslims that they should never patronize the non-Muslims against other Muslims. However, if some Muslims do wrong to some non-Muslims, it is Muslims's duty to help the non-Muslims and save them from oppression. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said that he himself will defend a Dhimmi living among Muslims to whom injustice is done by Muslims. But Islam also teaches that Muslims should not seek the patronage of non-Muslims against other Muslims. They should try to solve their problems among themselves. Allah Almighty says, [Let not the Believers take the unbelievers as their patrons over against the Believers…] (Aal-'Imran 3: 28)
He Almighty also says: [O you who believe! Take not for patrons unbelievers rather than Believers. Do you wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?] (An-Nisaa’ 4:144)
You can also read:
Domains of Muslim-Christian Cooperation
Do Muslims Hate non-Muslims?
Justice and Compassion: Ethics and Our Responsibilities
Allah Almighty knows best."
Surah 9:29: An exert from an article:
"Verse 9:29 of Surah at-tauba is probably the intentionally most misinterpreted verse of the Quran. This is what it says: -
“Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth , (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” S. 9:29 Y. Ali
Brother, I totally understand you when you say that this verse promotes violence on a cursory glance. But if you read it carefully you’ll find that it doesn’t. I hope you will be patient enough to be with me throughout the end of this article.
The verse says “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth”.
My question to you brother. Does this verse stop here? No it doesnt. It continues and gives the actual reason as to the fighting. This is the continuation: – “until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”.
PAYING JIZYA IS THE CONDITION FOR FIGHTING. THIS STATEMENT IS TOTALLY IGNORED OR OVERLOOKED WHEN LEVYING THIS ALLEGATION OF VIOLENCE ON MUSLIMS.
This verse doesn’t ask the Muslims to do mindless slaughter as the media portrays or deceives. It gives the Muslims the permission to fight only those non-Muslims who do not pay jizya – the state tax. And we all know that jizya is applicable only in an Islamic state. Neither India, nor US or Britain are Islamic states. So to put this verse as an excuse for what happened there only shows how biased, unknowledgable and unfair the media is and it hurts us deeply.
THE VERSE DOES NOT ASK THE MUSLIMS TO DO FORCEFUL CONVERSIONS.
Again, the verse permits the muslims to fight the non –muslims in an islamic state ONLY and ONLY if they refuse to pay the jizya – Willingly . Re-read the verse from ANY translation if you are not sure. But once they pay the jizya tax they can continue to believe in their atheistic pagan beliefs, but it will be under an Islamic state.
JIZYA ISN’T A RANSOM OR A BAD THING
Coming back to the verse, now people might say isn’t it unfair that they have to pay the jizya tax? Not really. Since when is punishment for refusal to pay lawful taxes considered as terrorism? Also, the jizya tax is very cheap and affordable, and it grants the non-Muslim’s many benefits, benefits which even the Muslims don’t get! For instance, the non-Muslims who are paying jizya in an Islamic state are not obliged to take part in any battle or war, unless they themselves choose to, the Muslims do not have this choice. Muslims have to actually burn their asses out to protect both Muslims and non-Muslims living in their lands. Also if the Islamic state cannot grant protection to the non-Muslims then the non-Muslims are not obliged to pay the jizya tax, since Muslims themselves must meet expectations for the jizya tax to be implemented. Also, Society today has no problem in paying taxes to the government, so therefore they should have no problem in paying a tax in an Islamic state either.
There you go my friend, verse 9:29 doesn’t encourage the muslims to do terrorism. It is a perfectly fair and just verse.
EVERY AUTHENTIC TRANSLATION OF THE QURAN HAS THE WORD “UNTIL” OR “TILL” IN THE VERSE 9:29
I could lay my hands on 7 different english translations of the quran and ALL OF THEM HAVE THE CONDITION:-
1. “[And] fight against those who – despite having been vouchsafed revelation [aforetime] – do not [truly] believe either in God or the last Day, and do not consider forbidden that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and do not follow the religion of truth [which God has enjoined upon the], till they [agree to] pay the exemption tax with a willing hand, after having been humbled [in war]” 9:29 Asad’s Translation
2. “Fight those people of the Book (Jews and Christians) who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day, do not refrain from what has been prohibited by Allah and His Rasool and do not embrace the religion of truth (Al-Islam), until they pay Jizya (protection tax) with their own hands and feel themselves subdued.” 9:29 Malik’s Translation
3. “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth (even if they are) of the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.” 9:29 Yusuf Ali’s Translation
4. “Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.” 9:29 Pickthall’s Translation
5. “Fight against those who believe not in Allâh, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” 9:29 Muhsin Khan’s Translation
6. “Fight those People of the Book who do not believe in Allah, nor in the Last Day, and do not take as unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have declared as unlawful, and do not profess the Faith of Truth; (fight them) until they pay jizyah with their own hands while they are subdued.” 9:29 Mufti Taqi Usmani’s Translation
7. “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.” 9:29 Sahih International Translation
FIGHTING NEED NOT ALWAYS BE PHYSICAL, IT CAN ALSO BE INTELLECTUAL
Finally, people might now say well isn’t Islam violent because Muslims are commanded to fight those who do not believe in God and so on etc etc. Not really, because fighting in this verse does not explicitly mean physical violence. Observe the words in the above verses like “willingly”, “willing submission”, “readily” etc. Here it is spoken about bringing a change from within the hearts of people which is brought about intellectually. There are many ways in which you fight against somebody that does not involve a physical aspect. You can fight someone with the tongue, using your wisdom and telling him about the truth, you are fighting against the lies that person is propagating and eventually with your tongue you will speak the truth and crush his lies leading him to the truth. So fighting does not have to only be physical."
Surah 98:6:
Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.
I don't see what the relevance is here. It is a warning, that people who disbelieve, from the People of the Book and the polytheists, they will end up in the Hell fire. A common warning in the Qur'an.
Will reply to the others at another time. I've got to go revise now.
ah ok so friend doesnt mean friend
fight doesnt mean with physical violence
protection tax doesnt mean extort people who have a different religion
beat doesnt mean beat either or it does mean beat but with a toothbrush
you do know that jizyah isnt just normal tax which applied to everyone? it was specific tax for a non muslim to pay
Quote:Neither India, nor US or Britain are Islamic states. So to put this verse as an excuse for what happened there only shows how biased, unknowledgable and unfair the media is and it hurts us deeply.
what happened there? what happened in india britain and the US?
i dont know why youre making this point, i dont think anyone is saying these places are islamic states, in fact are there any islamic states?
i think if i pointed out any to you and showed you how backwards their laws are you would claim they arent islamic states anyway.
my point is fighting people until they pay protection tax because they dont believe the same thing as you is wrong thats all.
also if you think theres nothing wrong in believing that people who believe different to you will burn in hell forever thats where me and you also differ.
The scholar in Arabic explained the meaning of the word.
The article stated fight can mean physically and non-physically.
The article explained that jizya tax is for non-muslims.
The tax provides protection and rights for non-muslims.
(January 20, 2013 at 3:46 pm)killybob Wrote: @ThatMuslimGuy and paulpablo
You write way too much. I greatly respect those who actually read your points before responding to them, as I bet even Allah would bore himself to tears trying to plough through that wall of text. Please try to make your arguments more concise. It will save you, as well as a great many others, a lot of time, and your point will be all the more poignant.
I'm sure that was a good argument you made there, but I for one COULD NOT BE FUCKED TO READ IT.
sorry to be a little insulting, but I just don't have time to read massive walls of text all day long, and I do want to be a part of the argument.
Lol. I dont blame you it was massively long. I will try and make my post shorter.
(January 20, 2013 at 3:49 pm)paulpablo Wrote:
Quote:The verse says “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth”.
My question to you brother. Does this verse stop here? No it doesnt. It continues and gives the actual reason as to the fighting. This is the continuation: – “until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”.
my question to you my brother is, did i say the verse ended it at that point? no.
did i actually quote the entire verse just like you did? yes
that was my actual point, the latter part of the verse is just as bad because its saying fight them until they pay protection tax.
I explained this is from an article. Not what i typed.
Oh Ok well in that case i accept your problem with the verse.
(January 20, 2013 at 3:54 pm)Confused Ape Wrote:
(January 20, 2013 at 2:53 pm)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote: Surah 5:51. This question was raised and has been answered by a scholar(Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi) who graduated from Medina University in the field of Arabic and Islamic Studies. It reads:
Yep the rules listed:
The opponent must always have started the fighting.
It must not be fought to gain territory.
It must be launched by a religious leader.
It must be fought to bring about good - something that Allah will approve of.
Every other way of solving the problem must be tried before resorting to war.
Innocent people should not be killed.
Women, children, or old people should not be killed or hurt.
Women must not be raped.
Enemies must be treated with justice.
Wounded enemy soldiers must be treated in exactly the same way as one's own soldiers.
The war must stop as soon as the enemy asks for peace.
Property must not be damaged.
Poisoning wells is forbidden. The modern analogy would be chemical or biological warfare.
are correct plus many others such as cannot hurt religious people such as monks.
(January 20, 2013 at 4:56 pm)5thHorseman Wrote: Its all shit
Hadith 1:23
Honest :/
Is this a reference to a ahadith? May i have the hadith collection, volume number(if it has one), book number and ahadith number.
(January 20, 2013 at 5:03 pm)apophenia Wrote:
(January 20, 2013 at 3:46 pm)killybob Wrote: @ThatMuslimGuy and paulpablo
You write way too much. I greatly respect those who actually read your points before responding to them, as I bet even Allah would bore himself to tears trying to plough through that wall of text. Please try to make your arguments more concise. It will save you, as well as a great many others, a lot of time, and your point will be all the more poignant.
I'm sure that was a good argument you made there, but I for one COULD NOT BE FUCKED TO READ IT.
sorry to be a little insulting, but I just don't have time to read massive walls of text all day long, and I do want to be a part of the argument.
I think you'd be greatly disappointed with what remains after you remove all the fluff, irrelevancies and nonsense. For instance, that wall of text on the first sura he defended amounts to a bare assertion that it means patron rather than friend, followed by some more bare assertion in the guise of some other Muslims attempting to pretend they knew what the mind of God was in dictating the term.
At least Drich's arguments have some meat on them.
How is it a bare assumption when the scholar who studied at the best Arabic and Islamic university in the world and who graduated in Arabic explains the word used in the Qur'an. If your not gonna accept someone who knows Arabic fluently i might as well stop here.
January 20, 2013 at 7:37 pm (This post was last modified: January 20, 2013 at 7:48 pm by Angrboda.)
(January 20, 2013 at 5:29 pm)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote:
(January 20, 2013 at 5:03 pm)apophenia Wrote: I think you'd be greatly disappointed with what remains after you remove all the fluff, irrelevancies and nonsense. For instance, that wall of text on the first sura he defended amounts to a bare assertion that it means patron rather than friend, followed by some more bare assertion in the guise of some other Muslims attempting to pretend they knew what the mind of God was in dictating the term.
How is it a bare assumption when the scholar who studied at the best Arabic and Islamic university in the world and who graduated in Arabic explains the word used in the Qur'an. If your not gonna accept someone who knows Arabic fluently i might as well stop here.
It's a bare assertion because the "scholar" in question, while acknowledging multiple meanings for the word, claims it means X instead of Y in the passage without giving any reason for the preference. That makes it a bare assertion, and any supposed credentials regarding his schooling and his knowledge of Arabic are irrelevant to the point. If you can't hack it, perhaps you should leave. I'm not overly impressed by the bare assertions of fellow kool-aid drinkers.
Quote:The correct translation of the word ""wali"" is not "friend" but it is someone who is very close and intimate. It is also used to mean "guardian, protector, patron, lord and master" ... In the Qur'an this word is used for God ... The same word is also sometimes used in the Qur'an for human beings, such as {....And whosoever is killed unjustly, We have granted his next kin ["wali"] the authority (to seek judgement or punishment in this case)…} (Al-‘Isra' 17 :33)
(emphasis added)
(There is an additional difficulty. Imam Ibn Kathir notes that some scholars suggest that the sura was revealed after the battle of Uhad as a response to some Muslims suggesting they seek shelter among the Jews. Beyond the problem of inferring God's intent, from what I understand, the Quran isn't arranged in chronological order and wasn't collected together until long after its original dissemination, so it's questionable the the "scholars" to which the Imam refers were actually basing this on anything concrete; feel free to demonstrate otherwise.)
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