A Miracle!!

[Craveman]

I would like to tell you about a miracle that happened to someone I know (even if that isn't all that well). She was healed a few years ago (I've only known her for a few months) by God. This was an 'instant' healing, not a process of slowly getting better (I don't think you even can get slowly better from what she had). She was dyslexic and also had another problem with the brain where she couldn't see green, big contrasts and straight lines properly and had a reading age of 8. She was then prayed for, healed, took her english GCSE and got an A in it.

That is a nice story and one I'm sure many Christians would cling to for dear life to try and "prove" their God. On a %-scale of answered prayers I would say it would be something like 0.0001%. What about the other millions starving or sick people(Christians) in the world. Why don't God answer those? Surely asking for health and peace is a worthy request? If Jesus was consistant with answering prayers (the way he promises he would in the Bible), why not help ALL people?

Or was this girl one of the few that actually asked for something worthy? Or did she have proper faith and the other millions not?

I will therefore remain sceptic

[rjh4 is back]

I think the point was there there is no evidence (that I have ever seen/heard of) of amputees growing back limbs, and that all claimed 'miracles' turn out to be things that could have happened naturally.

I actually think you missed the point. Padriac said that even if he saw evidence of the growth of an amputated limb, or of a new eye in an empty socket, something that doesn't just happen, that even in the face of such evidence he would not necessarily conclude that "God did it". Now I myself am not ready to jump in and say that Solarwaves case is a miracle. I am merely saying that if your presuppositions do not allow miracles to begin with, you will never recognize actual evidence for a miracle even if it was staring you in the face.

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What about the other millions starving or sick people(Christians) in the world. Why don't God answer those? Surely asking for health and peace is a worthy request? If Jesus was consistant with answering prayers (the way he promises he would in the Bible), why not help ALL people?

The fact that there are starving people in the world is not evidence for or against Solarwave's case. It is irrelevant to it. I think that the only "God" you would accept is one that would do exacly what you would do because it sure sounds like you are arguing something like: If God really existed, He would surely do something. That something didn't happen. Therefore God does not really exist. I think I am going to start calling this the "If I was God" fallacy.

[Craveman]

I think that the only "God" you would accept is one that would do exacly what you would do because it sure sounds like you are arguing something like: If God really existed, He would surely do something. That something didn't happen. Therefore God does not really exist. I think I am going to start calling this the "If I was God" fallacy.

More something like: If God really existed (as taught by the Bible), God would do as promised which is answer prayers. Starving people, to me, is a good argument that God is not loving and moral and don't do as promised in the Bible

[amw79]

I think the point was there there is no evidence (that I have ever seen/heard of) of amputees growing back limbs, and that all claimed 'miracles' turn out to be things that could have happened naturally.

I actually think you missed the point. Padriac said that even if he saw evidence of the growth of an amputated limb, or of a new eye in an empty socket, something that doesn't just happen, that even in the face of such evidence he would not necessarily conclude that "God did it". Now I myself am not ready to jump in and say that Solarwaves case is a miracle. I am merely saying that if your presuppositions do not allow miracles to begin with, you will never recognize actual evidence for a miracle even if it was staring you in the face.

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Well I'm not speaking for Padraig, but I think he said that in such a case (as an amputee limb growing back); something along the lines of - 'I'd be interested in seeing the explanation'.

Whereas clearly you would have already arrived at the conclusion without further need for investigation or evidence.

To flip your final sentence, the problem is if your presuppostions DO allow for miracles, you'll see them everywhere; as in Solarwave's case of somebody passing an exam - as they offer a glimpse of evidence in a currently conspicuous vaccum.

[Edwardo Piet]

Anecotal evidence isn't just the lowest form, it's not evidence, well, certainly not in this case anyway...

Why? Because simply:

What on earth makes you think it's God? Even if for some bizarre reason to jumped to the conclusion that praying did the trick, and you were somehow right - who says that prayer would only work if it was because of God? Just because some Book tells you so?

It could be one of uncountable number of other undetectable "gods" besides THE God... The Christian "God" - :S - ... and there is no more evidence for the Christian God than any other God... and since this, of course, includes the Bible not being evidence in any way, then it could just as easily be any of these other countless undetectable Gods...or it could be a "miracle" of "prayer" without any God being involved at all...

...Why could it? Well, because there's no evidence that prayer is even any more likely with a God than without one! It would be a totally fucking crazy miracle in either case!!

So, even if it was evidence of prayer then that doesn't make it evidence of God. And, of course, it's not evidence prayer since an anecdote is not evidence....

...let's put it this way, it's more likely that the both of you are hallucinating. Or even that the entire human race is, than it is that prayer works - and especially, if there's a "God" attached to it, without explanation.

EvF

[theblindferrengi]

If instead of suddenly getting better (if that is infact what happened) she had suddenly died (the other possible instantaneously decisive outcome), would that have been as suprising? Sure it would have been sad, or even shocking, but would it have been as much of a suprise? Would you instantly credit god for it? Or would you say that it was the fault of the disease? Logic and reason cannot be used selectively, either all the time or never; and when the unexplainable happens, three simple words can explain it for everyone, nomatter their worldveiw: 'I Don't Know'.

[solarwave]

One thing I seem to notice is that alot of you completely forget alot of what I said. I wasn't talking about just dyslexia, also the other brain problem I mentioned and the fact she had a reading age of 8. All conveniently forgotten to make rebuttal easier.

...let's put it this way, it's more likely that the both of you are hallucinating. Or even that the entire human race is, than it is that prayer works - and especially, if there's a "God" attached to it, without explanation.

You cant see the bias there?

It seems to me that Christians can accuse atheists of living in an imaginary world just as you might to us. You ask for outrageous evidence, which if you were given you wouldn't believe, while also think it does happen it will just come knocking on your door and you wont have to look for it. Are you really as open minded and rational as many atheist claim? Some here are. I think I have finally got it that evidence isn't enough.

[rjh4 is back]

To flip your final sentence, the problem is if your presuppostions DO allow for miracles, you'll see them everywhere; as in Solarwave's case of somebody passing an exam - as they offer a glimpse of evidence in a currently conspicuous vaccum.

I guess you missed it when I said: "Now I myself am not ready to jump in and say that Solarwaves case is a miracle." And to be clear, it is true that my presuppositions do allow for miracles.

[amw79]

One thing I seem to notice is that alot of you completely forget alot of what I said. I wasn't talking about just dyslexia, also the other brain problem I mentioned and the fact she had a reading age of 8. All conveniently forgotten to make rebuttal easier.

I didn't forget, however I'd suggest that the low reading age would be linked with the dyslexia problem; and the other "Brain problem"/"trouble with straight lines" is so vague and non-descript as to be unworthy of further comment.

rjh4.

Apologies, I wasn't clear in my comment, I know you reserved judgement on solarwave's "miracle"; however the comment was more generally aimed to make the point that if one believes in miracles, a) you'll start looking for them where its not necessary and another explanation will suffice, and b) even if no explanation is available - it's illogical to posit an explanation which will yield no evidence, and cannot itself be explained.

[rjh4 is back]

Apologies, I wasn't clear in my comment, I know you reserved judgement on solarwave's "miracle"; however the comment was more generally aimed to make the point that if one believes in miracles, a) you'll start looking for them where its not necessary and another explanation will suffice, and b) even if no explanation is available - it's illogical to posit an explanation which will yield no evidence, and cannot itself be explained.

Thanks for the clarification. I disagree with your conclusions though. Regarding a), Just because one's presuppositions allows for miracles does not mean that one automatically begins at miracles for the explanation of everything. It is not true of me, I know. Regarding b), that seems to me just a statement of your presupposition against miracles.

Say, for example, God really did, in fact, perform a miracle in Solarwave's friend's life. Let's say that is the absolute truth, i.e., what really and truly happened. You would never accept that based on your presupposition and no matter what explanation you came up with as a "possibility" it would not be the truth. So in this way, your presuppositions may very well limit you in your quest for real (actual/truthful) answers in life.