A Miracle!!

[Eilonnwy]

She was dyslexic she believed in dog? OK bad joke but someone was going to say it.

To be completely pedantic, that's not what dyslexia is. Reversal of words can be a symptom of dyslexia, but it is not what characterizes the neurological problem. It happens when a person cannot connect then alphabet with the words they are reading. For example, they have trouble perceiving words as a combination of the alphabet. They would have trouble combing the sounds or O and R to make the word "or". There are other aspects of dyslexia that has nothing to do with word reversal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyslexia

As far as the miracle goes, everyone else has said what I would have. No need to add to it.

[amw79]

Apologies, I wasn't clear in my comment, I know you reserved judgement on solarwave's "miracle"; however the comment was more generally aimed to make the point that if one believes in miracles, a) you'll start looking for them where its not necessary and another explanation will suffice, and b) even if no explanation is available - it's illogical to posit an explanation which will yield no evidence, and cannot itself be explained.

Thanks for the clarification. I disagree with your conclusions though. Regarding a), Just because one's presuppositions allows for miracles does not mean that one automatically begins at miracles for the explanation of everything. It is not true of me, I know. Regarding b), that seems to me just a statement of your presupposition against miracles.

Say, for example, God really did, in fact, perform a miracle in Solarwave's friend's life. Let's say that is the absolute truth, i.e., what really and truly happened. You would never accept that based on your presupposition and no matter what explanation you came up with as a "possibility" it would not be the truth. So in this way, your presuppositions may very well limit you in your quest for real (actual/truthful) answers in life.

In respect of a) it would seem that solarwave in this case has begun at the miracle explanation without having much further detail or looking for any other explanation. He's took somebody's word of a miracle as fact, without question. As to b) it certainly is illogical that where there is a lack of evidence, to simply posit an explanation of a miracle (The god of the gaps). Surely the logical step would be to withhold judgement whilst trying to find further evidence.

In your example that solarwave's miracle is genuine, I certainly wouldn't accept this explanation, when there are perfectly plausible non-supernatural explanations. Its a question of evidence and probability.

For example, I could say that as I child I couldn't swim. However I prayed really hard, and eventually I passed all my swimming exams. Therefore - a miracle. Sure I had loads of coaching and lessons, and had to stay back an extra hour each night in order to get myself to a standard to pass the exams, but it was definately a miracle.
Solarwave's example is no different to this (aside from the vague mention of "Brain problems", which he did not clarify or expand on, and I suspect is artistic license.)

Out of interest, you mentioned that you do believe in miracles. Aside from the 'documented' miracles of the bible, do you have any (non-anecdotal) evidence of miracles you would like to share.

[Meatball]

RJH, you have a valid point. It's still working from the opposite direction though.

Let's say I ate a bowl of square-circles while riding my unicorn on the way to work in the center of the Sun. Let's say that is the absolute truth.

While it's true that anyone's presuppositions would get in the way of arriving at this truth about my trip to work this morning, we know, by other logic, that this is very unlikely.

We know that someone going from a reading level of 8 to acing a high-level English exam is unlikely. We know that 2nd hand hearsay is dubious. We know that God responding to miracles is unprovable.

How on earth are we expected to arrive at the conclusion that the Christian God responded, specifically, to the subject's prayers? What kind of logic would lead us there?

What kind of logic would lead you to the truth about my morning?

[Minimalist]

Padriac said that even if he saw evidence of the growth of an amputated limb,

Salamanders can regrow limbs. Do you think they waste time "praying" for it to happen?

[Edwardo Piet]

...let's put it this way, it's more likely that the both of you are hallucinating. Or even that the entire human race is, than it is that prayer works - and especially, if there's a "God" attached to it, without explanation.

You cant see the bias there?

It's not bias, it's true. Hallucination there is evidence of the existence of, other explanations there is evidence of the existence/possibility of too. So yes, of course hallucination is more likely. We at least have evidence that hallucination happens, so it's of course more likely to be evidence of that than of "God" which - as far as I know - there's no evidence of whatsoever.

Are you really as open minded and rational as many atheist claim? Some here are. I think I have finally got it that evidence isn't enough.

Evidence is enough. Of course - it's paramount. The problem is 1. It isn't evidence. 2. Other alternatives are more likely. 3. If I can't think of any evidence that I will accept, that doesn't mean I'll accept without evidence. I'm not saying God is impossible, certainly not - I'm an agnostic atheist - but I am not going to believe without evidence regardless of if I can think of any or not.

Requiring evidence to believe and knowing what evidence it would take are two different things.

EvF

[Violet]

Padriac said that even if he saw evidence of the growth of an amputated limb,

Salamanders can regrow limbs. Do you think they waste time "praying" for it to happen?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regeneration_(biology) Several creatures do it, and they don't even have the capacity to pray

Even we have a very limited capacity to do it... and none of it based in prayer.

[Tiberius]

As many people have said in this thread, it isn't that our presuppositions are blinding us from the truth, it's that the claim is not verifiable and so ultimately unprovable for us.

I'm an atheist, but if there were evidence or proof of God out there somewhere, I'd want to hear it. I don't like being wrong, and I certainly don't want to be wrong about this if my "eternal soul" is at stake.

The problem with such personal claims is that they don't apply to me whatsoever. If a person came to me and said they could talk to God, I have no way of determining whether they are actually talking to God or just making things up (or being delusional). Until we have the ability to read thoughts (which is probably possible in the future), we have no way of testing the claim.

I'm not going to believe something on faith alone, because I see faith as ultimately pointless. It might be the truth, sure, but then it might not be. At least with testing claims we can verify what is true and what isn't.

[rjh4 is back]

As many people have said in this thread, it isn't that our presuppositions are blinding us from the truth,

And how do you know this?

[Eilonnwy]

As many people have said in this thread, it isn't that our presuppositions are blinding us from the truth,

And how do you know this?

Because of what was stated. We want evidence that is a bit more than hearsay. That's not a blinding presupposition but a demand for verifiable evidence. Where is the evidence that this women suddenly was "cured" from Dyslexia? That would at least be a start.

[Tiberius]

As many people have said in this thread, it isn't that our presuppositions are blinding us from the truth,

And how do you know this?

I know because I don't go around denying God exists. I am open (more so than most on this forum I suspect) to the idea of God. I used to believe one existed; I don't now. That might be what I believe for the rest of my life, it might not. If I saw any reason to believe in God, I would do so. I'm a rational person.

The point still stands though, that unverifiable examples of "miracles" are not going to persuade anyone other than believers. Unless it happens to me, I can't say anything about it. I have no way of distinguishing it from fantasy.