The concept of Hell discourages belief

[catfish]

The Septuagint (Greek translation of the OT) was done hundreds of years before the NT was written and it substituted hades for sheol. This was not a new practice with the NT writers.

But the act of translating sheol into Hades was arbitrary, wasn't it? Do you recognise that so-called "righteous" people were said to be in sheol in the OT?

[John V]

But the act of translating sheol into Hades was arbitrary, wasn't it?

No. Sheol was where people went when they died. The realm of Hades is where people went when they died. Obviously there were differences in details, but the similarities were strong enough that the translators used it.

Do you recognise that so-called "righteous" people were said to be in sheol in the OT?

Yes.

[Drich]

I've heard it said that nothing is too hard for God. Do you disagree? Do you believe in a God that can't decree perpetual separation between two groups of people for eternity and just have it be so without checking every 5 minutes to make sure it's still working?

It's not about viable options. It about the reason He should make an effort to support those who Do not want anything to do with Him or is people.

Imagine a house guest who wants nothing to do with you staying in your home for an eternity...

Now Imagine a guest who has killed raped murdered and persucuted members of your family. Why would you even want them in your sight?

Again we are not talking about just the luke warm believers who can't be bother to fully commit or those of you who demand God grovel before you on your term before the commit to belief. You all are a small minority compared to those who outright Hate God and his followers. Are those people to be mixed in with the rest of you or are they to be sent to Hell? What about satan and his angels? Are they to be mixed in with you? What if they start Raping and causing harm to you and people like you For eternity, is this fair? This walled city you are suggesting has the potential to be worse than Hell for everyone there.

Infinite punishment for finite crimes is unjust by definition.

That's the thing because you are finite does not mean the sin was. No one can deny that what happened on 911 changed the direction America was going, Forever. We do not know what person could have been wiped out of existence because one or both of their parents died that day. He/She could have been a Hitler or an Enistein, or a Great world leader. There is no telling what would have been. Not to mention the effects destroying the World center of finance has had on our global ecconmy. This is what the butterfly effect does on a large scale. Even Our indivisual actions have consenquences that can change the direction and development of man. The point is we do not know what our sins spawn, so we can't say our sins are finite.

There has to come a point where you've suffered enough, no matter what you've done. What crime is so great that you deserve to be tortured eternally after you've already been tortured for a trillion trillion trillion years?

Do you really think your mind was designed to take so much punishment and stay where it is now? (To retain your personality your being/What makes you, you?) No. Even if your being was not consumed by the void your mind would only be able to endure so much before what makes you, you is gone. I know my experience in Hell was nothing more than a dream, but I felt my mind going the deeper I fell into the void. I came to the understanding that my sanity was apart of creation and as the doors of creation closed on the pit I was in, the controled I enjoyed over my ablities to think and reason began to leave me.

I Think, the worse we are the longer we are made to endure Hell. I was just a unproductive branch and as a result burned up quickly, leaving a ball of primal emotions that could not think or reason. I also think that For a hitler or a Stalin, there experience of Hell will be more involved before the are consumed. Satan however is going to be in it for the long haul.

To each their own, but I don't see any reason to believe you.

As you said to each their own. If you are looking to be more 'moral' than God, then there is nothing that can be said or done. If however you want to look a little deeper than the medevil church's understanding of Hell then I will be glad to help you find the places in scripture that describes Hell as a CONSUMING fire. And that Hell is eternal For the punishment of Satan..

Maybe, but your isn't, either. The Bible never mentions the void you mention or hell being separation from God.

Maybe ask what I am talking about or ask for Book Chapter and verse before you assume.
Christ calls it a "Great Chasm" In Luke 16:19-31 in the story about Lazarus and the rich man.

In Rev 9:1-11 John refers to it as the great abyss or in some translations the bottomless pit.

and again in Rev 20 it mentions this abyss or void or even gulf in some translations The orginal Greek word is: ἄβυσσος abyssos
1) bottomless

2) unbounded

3) the abyss

a) the pit

b) the immeasurable depth

c) of Orcus, a very deep gulf or chasm in the lowest parts of the earth used as the common receptacle of the dead and especially as the abode of demons
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi...=G12&t=KJV

After it's no longer useful in determining our fates. Would that be okay in this life, say, witholding information about which cancer treatment is most effective until after the patient has committed to a course of treatment?

You and I see things differently. You see cancer as an always evil thing. I see cancer as a tool, one than can proof or even establish a relationship with God or show you you dont or never really had one. My end goal is not about how long I can enjoy this life, it is about ensuring we get to enjoy eternity, and if enduring a second rate cancer treatment is the only way this can happen then so be it. If it means a stroke or heart attack, contracting AIDS or some other really terriable thing to me or someone close to me then again so be it. This life this world is not our home, so why fuss over it so much when there is so much more to be had?

You can truly love whatever your torturer wants if the pain is bad enough and has going on long enough.

If you think this then you do not understand what love is. Or rather do not understand what God wants from us.

Self preservation isn't an issue, apparently not existing forever isn't an option. I don't love him in this life because I think he is imaginary. If he wants me to love him once I know he's real and he's insecure about whether I would love him if I wasn't being tortured, maybe he shouldn't torture me.

Which is not an excuse as we have been given the oppertunity to have God personally interact with us to proove to us that He is absolutly real. All we have to do is earnestly want to set aside our pride and follow his instructions.

Perhaps you could quote the verse that refers to hell as 'The Void'?

See above

Due to my familiarity with agonizing pain, I would have to conclude that hell must not actually be very painful, then.

Again it is all a matter of perspective. I found Hell to be empty, and I brought the torment with me, because for the breifest of moments I felt the love and saw What God was actually offering me. I can only imagine not everyone will care as much as I did. Which is what leads me to believe that I was consumed by 'hell fire' on the way through the gates, and why I think others maybe there a while before they are consumed.

Could you define God's limits, please? You seem to think you have special information that God can't build an unbreachable wall. I need a scorecord to keep track of all the things you think God can't do.

He did infact build an unbreachable wall Luke talks about it in luke 16. What makes it unbreachable is the fact that Hell in on the otherside.
As Far as the limits of God are concerned, it seems that He limits Himself to not reprogram the minds of who He has created. Lucifer and His followers along with all of those in whom He had killed verify this.

I'm not privy to the inner workings of the heaven of your imagination.

http://www.biblegateway.com/
You are now

Can the full power and authority of the Holy Spirit at your beck and call help you construct an argument for the existence of God that doesn't contain a logical fallacy?

The bible tells us God Himself establishes himself in the life of the believer, if that person simply humbles himself before God. Why would He help me bypass His own decree?
The Full power and authority of God is for you to experience yourself. Not for me to water down for you to comperhend.

Because a person who claims to have the power of God at their disposal who can't do anything anyone else can't do too sounds more like a schizophrenic than someone who has been granted access to any ultimate truths.

Then you do not understand the most basic nature of God. We have been given access to the Holy Spirit so that magic may abound, and we get to do things the way we want. In the Lord's prayer we are taught to seek God's will over our own. Meaning the Power of the Holy Spirit that has been given to us is limited to how God wants us to use it.

Meaning there are no short cuts for you. you will have to put in the time and effort, for if God just magiced you into belief then you would take all that you current believe about God with you, Rather than learning to seek who God really is through what the bible says. Take your view on Hell and how It can not be considered a void. or How God must be fair to those who hate Him and his followers. Or that God must always provide the easiest path for you to follow, Or the fact that you are here to trade good deeds and morality for granted wishes... I mean to ask why would you seek the actual God of the bible, if in your current understanding of God says He is to magic you into belief? If He does that, then where does He draw the line on what you believe verses how He actually is? Does it not make more sense to make you see Him on His terms from the beginning?

part 1

[The Reality Salesman01]

Imagine a house guest who wants nothing to do with you staying in your home for an eternity...

Now Imagine a guest who has killed raped murdered and persucuted members of your family. Why would you even want them in your sight?.

Why do you add rape and murder to the list? Is that the disqualifying criteria or is it simply the guest that doesn't want to stay?

I can answer your question in a few ways. It's a loaded question and really doesn't clarify your position very much but here's my take on your thought experiment:

Yes, I would let them leave. But, if they wanted to come back, they could come right on in and sit at the table and help me eat dinner. I wouldn't subject them to torture upon exiting my house.

Secondly if they were rapist-murderers persucuting my family, I wouldn't be too sure who let them in the house in the first place, but yes, I would want them out of my sight. If I was a powerful God, i'd fix them, and then let them in.

Can God not do this? Or does he just not care to because his feelings were hurt by the rapers he created? Sounds to me like those rapists he made probably went through enough shit playing the hand God dealt them in life, and the least He could do is fix them!

So far, these little thought experiments you've come up with aren't painting a very good picture of your God. Where's the Jesus Juice? Of course, when you fail to argue logically and it seems that non-believer's arguments are too strong, you are taught that is just the devil trying to decieve you. You should fight through it, and if you come up with enough fallacies, perhaps we will forget about things needing to make sense, and we will be convinced. Why does your God insist on illogical methods channelled through strangers as his only means of reaching out the ones he so desperately wants to be saved? Why not connect with us on the level we were supposedly designed to be connected through?

[Mister Agenda]

I see we have a new element: your mind is quicly destroyed by your torment (quite believable), so what's being tortured for eternity isn't recognizably you, making torturing it even more pointless. Why not just extinguish the pathetic ball of suffering? What point is served by keeping it suffering? I wouldn't leave a rabid dog like that.

[Esquilax]

I see we have a new element: your mind is quicly destroyed by your torment (quite believable), so what's being tortured for eternity isn't recognizably you, making torturing it even more pointless. Why not just extinguish the pathetic ball of suffering? What point is served by keeping it suffering? I wouldn't leave a rabid dog like that.

Don't you see? It's all a part of god's eternal love!

[Drich]

Why do you add rape and murder to the list? Is that the disqualifying criteria or is it simply the guest that doesn't want to stay?

As god you show know that many Christians have been raped and murdered by non believers. That is why I asked, should those people be allowed to torment their victims for eternity? Is it right that those who suffered at the hands of unrighteous men in this life, have to contend with them for eternity as well, just because fence sitters like yourself are afraid to fully commit themselves?

I can answer your question in a few ways. It's a loaded question and really doesn't clarify your position very much but here's my take on your thought experiment:

Yes, I would let them leave. But, if they wanted to come back, they could come right on in and sit at the table and help me eat dinner. I wouldn't subject them to torture upon exiting my house.

Then I have a prision ministry you might be interested in serving in. I first heard about it from an employee who was living in a half way house and was on a work release with me. Basically what it is, is an attempt to reintergreat people who have served the majority their time, back into the community. Crimes range from Sexual assualt with a minor under the age of 16 to rehabilitated addicts, to petty crimes like B&E. So basically you can work with the program two ways. You can employ one of these guys (We had a former sex offender/of a minor under 16) or you can open your home to them and provide them a place to stay. (This is what our guy was doing with a family who appearently rented out all of their rooms, living room and garage space.) Everything was good for a while, But he did say that one of the other guys got a little violent with the lady of the house and roughed her up some, and threatened to kill everyone else in the house, so our guy had to move back to prison for a while (where he was tormented by the other inmates for being convicted of being a child molester for a few months while he was still with us) Until he found another 1/2 house and job 90 miles away in other city.. If it sounds like something you would like to do (Put your money where your mouth is) then I can and will definatly help you set things up. As I am sure they have this program in your city as well.

As far as what you get, you get a tax break for helping these guys and a small stipen to cover the living expences (if you have one of the guys move in.) or If you employ one, you just get the tax break, and the satasifiaction of helping someone in need out.. The only problem with that is you never know who really is looking to make a change and who is looking to work the system till an oppertunity comes along that allows the dead to take/consume what they want.

Secondly if they were rapist-murderers persucuting my family, I wouldn't be too sure who let them in the house in the first place, but yes, I would want them out of my sight. If I was a powerful God, i'd fix them, and then let them in.

Then where does He draw the line? For us Rape and murder seem to be the button that gets pushed or the line that is crossed. What if His line is as simple as gossip? Should He fix all of us, because all have sinned against Him?

Can God not do this?

Why should he? He, like us, only wants to be around people who truly want to love and be around Him. Or do you seek the company of those who look to use you and want to be your friend so long as you can provide them with what they want from you?

Or does he just not care to because his feelings were hurt by the rapers he created? Sounds to me like those rapists he made probably went through enough shit playing the hand God dealt them in life, and the least He could do is fix them!

To tell you the truth He would if they'd only ask. The only condition that can not or rather will not be 'fixed' is the one that has an indivisual not want to be 'fix/forgiven' in the first place.

So far, these little thought experiments you've come up with aren't painting a very good picture of your God.

The Picture paints itself. whether you like what is painted or not, is on you. My only job is to sit you before that picture.

Where's the Jesus Juice? Of course, when you fail to argue logically and it seems that non-believer's arguments are too strong, you are taught that is just the devil trying to decieve you.

If you think your 'non-believer arguements' are too strong you suffer from PE. give it time my way ward sailor, and be patient. don't claim a victory till I openly conceed.

You should fight through it, and if you come up with enough fallacies, perhaps we will forget about things needing to make sense, and we will be convinced.

Something to think about.. If your understanding of God doesn't make sense.. Then Maybe, just maybe do you think it possiable you do not understand God? Or rather even understand the side of God that has been revealed in Scripture? Why would you assume that you have a solid understanding of what/who God even is as an Atheist anyway??

Why does your God insist on illogical methods channelled through strangers as his only means of reaching out the ones he so desperately wants to be saved? Why not connect with us on the level we were supposedly designed to be connected through?

If God's presents was known to you whether you would have believed in Him or not, what chloice would you have in the matter? Because if you knew God to be real then it would stand to reason Hell would also be real, there by making you seek redemption as a matter of self preservation, and not an expression of Love for God. As it is, without direct knoweledge of God (Unless we ASk Seek and Knock for it) we are allowed to blind ourselves any way we want and live our life according to our hearts desire, thus ensuring that only those who seek to know God are the only ones who do, for the reasons He wanted us to have in our hearts.

---

I see we have a new element: your mind is quicly destroyed by your torment (quite believable), so what's being tortured for eternity isn't recognizably you, making torturing it even more pointless. Why not just extinguish the pathetic ball of suffering? What point is served by keeping it suffering? I wouldn't leave a rabid dog like that.

Again I do not know that doesn't happen. the only reason I left that open ended is just incase the bible says Hell and the people in it will suffer eternally, without actually saying it. (It gives those who believe in eternal Hell their whatever and still allows for what I experienced.)

[The Reality Salesman01]

Why do you add rape and murder to the list? Is that the disqualifying criteria or is it simply the guest that doesn't want to stay?

As god you show know that many Christians have been raped and murdered by non believers. That is why I asked, should those people be allowed to torment their victims for eternity? Is it right that those who suffered at the hands of unrighteous men in this life, have to contend with them for eternity as well, just because fence sitters like yourself are afraid to fully commit themselves?

I can answer your question in a few ways. It's a loaded question and really doesn't clarify your position very much but here's my take on your thought experiment:

Yes, I would let them leave. But, if they wanted to come back, they could come right on in and sit at the table and help me eat dinner. I wouldn't subject them to torture upon exiting my house.

Then I have a prision ministry you might be interested in serving in. I first heard about it from an employee who was living in a half way house and was on a work release with me. Basically what it is, is an attempt to reintergreat people who have served the majority their time, back into the community. Crimes range from Sexual assualt with a minor under the age of 16 to rehabilitated addicts, to petty crimes like B&E. So basically you can work with the program two ways. You can employ one of these guys (We had a former sex offender/of a minor under 16) or you can open your home to them and provide them a place to stay. (This is what our guy was doing with a family who appearently rented out all of their rooms, living room and garage space.) Everything was good for a while, But he did say that one of the other guys got a little violent with the lady of the house and roughed her up some, and threatened to kill everyone else in the house, so our guy had to move back to prison for a while (where he was tormented by the other inmates for being convicted of being a child molester for a few months while he was still with us) Until he found another 1/2 house and job 90 miles away in other city.. If it sounds like something you would like to do (Put your money where your mouth is) then I can and will definatly help you set things up. As I am sure they have this program in your city as well.

As far as what you get, you get a tax break for helping these guys and a small stipen to cover the living expences (if you have one of the guys move in.) or If you employ one, you just get the tax break, and the satasifiaction of helping someone in need out.. The only problem with that is you never know who really is looking to make a change and who is looking to work the system till an oppertunity comes along that allows the dead to take/consume what they want.

Secondly if they were rapist-murderers persucuting my family, I wouldn't be too sure who let them in the house in the first place, but yes, I would want them out of my sight. If I was a powerful God, i'd fix them, and then let them in.

Then where does He draw the line? For us Rape and murder seem to be the button that gets pushed or the line that is crossed. What if His line is as simple as gossip? Should He fix all of us, because all have sinned against Him?

Can God not do this?

Why should he? He, like us, only wants to be around people who truly want to love and be around Him. Or do you seek the company of those who look to use you and want to be your friend so long as you can provide them with what they want from you?

Or does he just not care to because his feelings were hurt by the rapers he created? Sounds to me like those rapists he made probably went through enough shit playing the hand God dealt them in life, and the least He could do is fix them!

To tell you the truth He would if they'd only ask. The only condition that can not or rather will not be 'fixed' is the one that has an indivisual not want to be 'fix/forgiven' in the first place.

So far, these little thought experiments you've come up with aren't painting a very good picture of your God.

The Picture paints itself. whether you like what is painted or not, is on you. My only job is to sit you before that picture.

Where's the Jesus Juice? Of course, when you fail to argue logically and it seems that non-believer's arguments are too strong, you are taught that is just the devil trying to decieve you.

If you think your 'non-believer arguements' are too strong you suffer from PE. give it time my way ward sailor, and be patient. don't claim a victory till I openly conceed.

You should fight through it, and if you come up with enough fallacies, perhaps we will forget about things needing to make sense, and we will be convinced.

Something to think about.. If your understanding of God doesn't make sense.. Then Maybe, just maybe do you think it possiable you do not understand God? Or rather even understand the side of God that has been revealed in Scripture? Why would you assume that you have a solid understanding of what/who God even is as an Atheist anyway??

Why does your God insist on illogical methods channelled through strangers as his only means of reaching out the ones he so desperately wants to be saved? Why not connect with us on the level we were supposedly designed to be connected through?

If God's presents was known to you whether you would have believed in Him or not, what chloice would you have in the matter? Because if you knew God to be real then it would stand to reason Hell would also be real, there by making you seek redemption as a matter of self preservation, and not an expression of Love for God. As it is, without direct knoweledge of God (Unless we ASk Seek and Knock for it) we are allowed to blind ourselves any way we want and live our life according to our hearts desire, thus ensuring that only those who seek to know God are the only ones who do, for the reasons He wanted us to have in our hearts.

---

I see we have a new element: your mind is quicly destroyed by your torment (quite believable), so what's being tortured for eternity isn't recognizably you, making torturing it even more pointless. Why not just extinguish the pathetic ball of suffering? What point is served by keeping it suffering? I wouldn't leave a rabid dog like that.

Again I do not know that doesn't happen. the only reason I left that open ended is just incase the bible says Hell and the people in it will suffer eternally, without actually saying it. (It gives those who believe in eternal Hell their whatever and still allows for what I experienced.)

I address why all of what you have just typed doesn't make sense in the thread "A question to God" It shows the petty characteristics you continue to justify with questions and failed thought experiments for me.

Secondly, there's a guy on here that says he's God. He is just as possible as the God you describe only he doesn't sound like as big a dick. Why should I believe you and not in Him?

[Drich]

I address why all of what you have just typed doesn't make sense in the thread "A question to God" It shows the petty characteristics you continue to justify with questions and failed thought experiments for me.

Secondly, there's a guy on here that says he's God. He is just as possible as the God you describe only he doesn't sound like as big a dick. Why should I believe you and not in Him?

Red Herring..

See popeye, that is why i said do not claim a victory unless your opponet conceeds.. Or in this case defaults to logical fallacies.

To that end I responded to your 'iam god thread' And you did not respond to what I wrote. I offered you a way to proove yourself to be God. (The same way Jesus did) Be killed and simply resurect yourself. Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is god? Or do you hope wait to be tested in the way of natural causes?

[Ryantology]

I died and resurrected myself.