If god were real...

[Foxaèr]

If I go try to be friendly with Bill Gates for his money and Gates knows this, he's not going to give me anything but a security officer to escort me off the property.

The difference between Bill Gates and your god is that Bill Gates will not send you to an eternity of damnation.

[The Grand Nudger]

Hey go read it correctly this time, I said nothing about God being scared and for good reason. I've though it through for years and years, read and reread, studied and studied more, what have you done, read my statement for only what you wanted to see. This is what explains everything.

Wasted years GC, wasted years. You said nothing about god being scared because it never occurred to you - and because it never occurred to you...you didn't realize that the thought of a "frightened" omniscience would apply just as well to your spirit as anything else.

[Simon Moon]

This has to be the most unreasoned and unreasonable analogy I've ever heard, I mean really, can you really believe such a weak statement. If a person does not know what decision he will make about anything, then that's free will. It doesn't matter whether God or you knows what decision someone will make, it's free will.

If every decision I will ever make is already known, I had no free will to make another choice.

I may think I had the choice, but I did not.

[Godscreated]

This has to be the most unreasoned and unreasonable analogy I've ever heard, I mean really, can you really believe such a weak statement. If a person does not know what decision he will make about anything, then that's free will. It doesn't matter whether God or you knows what decision someone will make, it's free will.

If every decision I will ever make is already known, I had no free will to make another choice.

I may think I had the choice, but I did not.

Why has a murderer never used that as a defense in a court of law, you know, God made me do it because He fore knew what choice I would make. It's not me who is guilty, I had no choice in the matter.

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It doesn't matter if it was Lucifer or another angel it was going to be someone disobeying God.

Do you want others to love you because they want to, because they actually love who you are? This is what God wants, now maybe you want people to love you because they fill obligated to, that is not true love by the way. So God gave us free will to choose, He wants people to choose.

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Then you have to think to yourself: perhaps god was worthy of being disobeyed. No matter how you look at it, god had foreknowledge of himself bringing evil into the world due to his omniscience. You can run yourself in circles all you want, attempting to remain convinced that your god is good, but in the end the logic has to bite that brain of yours and make you realize how gullible you have been. Hopefully.

You honestly have a very skewed sense of love. If god wanted us to love him of our own free will, he would not threaten us with the punishment of hell for not believing in him and not loving him. The way god expects his creations to love him derives from sociopathy.

You perceive being given a choice by God as threatening, yet I do not see anyone saying the government is threatening because it gives people a choice, not to commit first degree murder, or be executed.
It's not me going around in circles, I see things straight down the line, it is you I perceive is the one getting dizzy.

[CleanShavenJesus]

Poor analogy.

You admit right there that God knew of Lucifer's intentions...so God knew Lucifer would be evil, correct?

So, yes, if your child is a murderer that doesn't make you a murderer, but if you KNOW your child WILL be a murderer and do nothing about it....

If you had God's omniscience you would be scared to do anything. God knowing before hand that Lucifer would usher in evil does not make Him responsible for the evil, Lucifer is the guilty party.

I never said he'd be scared to do anything. What do you mean God knowing Lucifer would be evil does not make him responsible? Now your child/murderer analogy actually does work (at least, the version I created to fit the situation), but not in your favor.

God is 100% responsible for the evil of Lucifer if he created Lucifer with the knowledge that he would be evil. That's just common sense.

But of course, you outright denied that God created Lucifer at all a couple of pages ago. So maybe your knowledge is a bit shady.

What you lack is understanding of the scriptures, God created the angels, mankind and any other beings capable of loving God for that very reason, God wanted His created ones to love Him.

...but he created the evil one he knew would be evil.

I guess you're the one lacking understanding of the scriptures, because I'm just responding based on what you're posting.

[Baalzebutt]

Why has a murderer never used that as a defense in a court of law, you know, God made me do it because He fore knew what choice I would make. It's not me who is guilty, I had no choice in the matter.

I'm calling "Poe".

Are you really that dense?You are aware that our court system doesn't recognize the existence of god?

You are further aware that MANY people have used that very explanation (though it usually takes the form of "the devil made me do it")?

This is most generally referred to as an "Insanity Plea".

[The Grand Nudger]

People -do- try to use that defense (god made me do it).....and sometimes- it works...sadly

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/04/03/childr...?_s=PM:LAW
"Mom who said she killed on God's orders acquitted"

as to your question more specifically GC, most of our laws (esp criminal) have something to do with the idea of intent, of "free will" - that's not an indicator that these things exist - that;s just how our laws are setup. Your omniscient busybody would put the lie to that, but courts don't care - because the shit that you dredge out of your holy book doesn't factor into how they run "their business". In this case, she wasn't acquitted, for example, because anyone thought god made her do it - but because the defense made the case that she was insane - an easy case to make...when you can open it out with "this grown adult believes in fairies".

[Godscreated]

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Why has a murderer never used that as a defense in a court of law, you know, God made me do it because He fore knew what choice I would make. It's not me who is guilty, I had no choice in the matter.

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I'm calling "Poe".

Are you really that dense?You are aware that our court system doesn't recognize the existence of god?

You are further aware that MANY people have used that very explanation (though it usually takes the form of "the devil made me do it")?

This is most generally referred to as an "Insanity Plea".

His phone is disconnected, he's dead and God knows where he is. Ha, Ha
What, our courts have never said God does not exist, you must think I ...or is it you that lives in Russia. Switching devil in place of God, shame on you, you have jumped off subject. The insanity plea is a secular designation for; hey I did it but am not responsible for my actions, a cop out on responsibility.

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If you had God's omniscience you would be scared to do anything. God knowing before hand that Lucifer would usher in evil does not make Him responsible for the evil, Lucifer is the guilty party.

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I never said he'd be scared to do anything. What do you mean God knowing Lucifer would be evil does not make him responsible? Now your child/murderer analogy actually does work (at least, the version I created to fit the situation), but not in your favor.

I did not say you did, my response was to Rhythm, he said I was saying God was scared of satan.

God is 100% responsible for the evil of Lucifer if he created Lucifer with the knowledge that he would be evil. That's just common sense.

What happen to logic, that word pops up everywhere.
As I said before if Lucifer did not fail another angel would have, this being the case God still would have know who. So by your proposal it would have been better for God to have not created the angels or man, He should have stopped at the animals. He should have denied Himself of the love He desired.

But of course, you outright denied that God created Lucifer at all a couple of pages ago. So maybe your knowledge is a bit shady.

I've never said God did not create Lucifer, I do not know how you came to such a conclusion.

What you lack is understanding of the scriptures, God created the angels, mankind and any other beings capable of loving God for that very reason, God wanted His created ones to love Him.

...but he created the evil one he knew would be evil.

I guess you're the one lacking understanding of the scriptures, because I'm just responding based on what you're posting.

God did not create satan, He created the angel of angels, the top ranked angel, who was called Lucifer. Lucifer made himself into satan, scripture tells us this, period. You have a son, you train him up to be a good citizen, you've done a good job. Then your son takes a turn, by his own decision he becomes a murderer, it's your fault even though you raised him contrary to what he has become, isn't this what you are saying.

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People -do- try to use that defense (god made me do it).....and sometimes- it works...sadly

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/04/03/childr...?_s=PM:LAW
"Mom who said she killed on God's orders acquitted"

as to your question more specifically GC, most of our laws (esp criminal) have something to do with the idea of intent, of "free will" - that's not an indicator that these things exist - that;s just how our laws are setup. Your omniscient busybody would put the lie to that, but courts don't care - because the shit that you dredge out of your holy book doesn't factor into how they run "their business". In this case, she wasn't acquitted, for example, because anyone thought god made her do it - but because the defense made the case that she was insane - an easy case to make...when you can open it out with "this grown adult believes in fairies".

This court case has nothing to do with God's omniscience, His foreknowledge makes Him guilty of all crime is the argument. This said, if that were true then everyone is innocent because God foreknew their action. This is preposterous, it implies the maker of anything misused is guilty of the crime, like what Colorado is trying to pass as a gun law. They want to make the manufacture of guns responsible for the crime committed with their gun, that's insanity of the greatest kind.

[Baalzebutt]

God did not create satan, He created the angel of angels, the top ranked angel, who was called Lucifer. Lucifer made himself into satan, scripture tells us this, period. You have a son, you train him up to be a good citizen, you've done a good job. Then your son takes a turn, by his own decision he becomes a murderer, it's your fault even though you raised him contrary to what he has become, isn't this what you are saying.

Really???!!!

Fuck me.

Ok, I'll say this one more time. Your gods omniscience make him responsible. We, as mere humans, are not omniscient, and therefore did not have foreknowledge of what our offspring would do. We are responsible for their acts up until they reach legal age. At that point, they become responsible for their own actions. On the other hand, your god knew exactly what would happen, lucifer or otherwise, and went ahead and did it anyway. Stop at animals? Why not just prevent evil in the first place? He is omnipotent after all. Logical thinking dictates that god wanted evil in the world. There is no way around this conclusion. Trot out your apologetics all you want. The facts remain unchanged

What part of that do you not understand?

It seems that human are very god-like when it suits your purpose and fundamentally flawed when it doesn't. So which is it? Am I god and therefore fully responsible for my children's actions from the day they are born to the day they die, or am I a flawed individual whose only hope for redemption is through a zombie that sacrificed himself to himself?

[The Grand Nudger]

This court case has nothing to do with God's omniscience, His foreknowledge makes Him guilty of all crime is the argument. This said, if that were true then everyone is innocent because God foreknew their action. This is preposterous, it implies the maker of anything misused is guilty of the crime, like what Colorado is trying to pass as a gun law. They want to make the manufacture of guns responsible for the crime committed with their gun, that's insanity of the greatest kind.

That -was- her defense, she had no choice. How did you miss those closing comments from the defense in the link? I was sure you'd blow a load all over your pc reading them.

Everyone -would be- innocent if intent and free will were requirements for a charge - and they had none.
Omniscience implies foreknowledge, and human beings with foreknowledge of a crime (who fail to take action to prevent it)can be charged in connection to that crime. If you know someone is going to murder your neighbor, you know who, the time, and how - and you don't call the cops....you'd best hope they don't find that out. It's that simple. It's not preposterous, it's very easy to understand.

The colorado gun law sounds hilarious - but what does that have to do with your god?