Is belief really a choice?

[My imaginary friend is GOD]

Well, I didn't choose to be an atheist. As I've said before, the proposition of god(s) was just too silly for me to take seriously, even though I tried very, very hard.

That said, it seems that some people do choose their beliefs (or lack thereof). My mother says she has. My brother has definitely chosen to be an apatheist.

[The Grand Nudger]

Original point of contention:

And would add, the fact we do condemn them, shows we believe we do choose what we believe and that there are things that we ought to believe(ie. there are thought crimes).

You're pointing to another belief.....to demonstrate that we choose our beliefs? At what point are you going to realize that this is fruitless...and how might I explain this to you in some other way?

So we believe two things when we condemn people:

Full stop - we believe things - but whether or not we had a choice in that belief is not established by our having a belief.

1) We chose what to believe.
2) That there are things we ought to believe.

1] Did you choose to believe that?

2]Did you choose those things you ought to believe?

Without those 2, we can't condemn 9/11 Hijackers.

Of course we can. Nevertheless, whether or not we can condemn a person - consistently or inconsistently has what to say about whether or not we can choose what we believe?

Of course, I said, this doesn't demonstrate we are right in our assumptions.

I think I've defended the original point of contention well and we are moving away from that now.

You haven't begun to argue the original point of contention Mystic - look at the op - you offered your aside as a way to demonstrate that we had a choice in what we believe. At least I assumed that this was the reason you offered it? Was I mistaken?

[Mystic]

Do you feel any pride for being an Atheist? If you do, then this means you believe 1) you had a choice in the matter 2) it is praiseworthy to a degree. If you don't have pride in being an Atheist at all, then you would be consistent.

[My imaginary friend is GOD]

Do you feel any pride for being an Atheist? If you do, then this means you believe 1) you had a choice in the matter 2) it is praiseworthy to a degree. If you don't have pride in being an Atheist at all, then you would be consistent.

I have pride in being gay, too, it doesn't mean I chose to be gay.

[The Grand Nudger]

LOL, not really, no. I didn't do anything for it.
If I believed 1 - it still wouldn't establish that I had a choice in believing 1 - or 2.

Whether I were consistent or inconsistent it wouldn't establish that I had a choice in either belief - if I possessed either belief.

[Mystic]

You're pointing to another belief.....to demonstrate that we choose our beliefs?

I am not. I'm simply showing you my perspective and the human perspective in general.

1] Did you choose to believe that?

2]Did you choose those things you ought to believe?

I am uncertain, but I believe so.

Of course we can. Nevertheless, whether or not we can condemn a person - consistently or inconsistently has what to say about whether or not we can choose what we believe?

No we can't. We have to believe in those things to condemn them (even if we believe in contradicting notions like we don't chose to believe what we believe).

Of course, it doesn't demonstrate our belief regarding that is true, which I already stated.

You haven't begun to argue the original point of contention Mystic - look at the op - you offered your aside as a way to demonstrate that we had a choice in what we believe.

No you are reading too much into it. I am simply showing you that is what we believe and to be consistent with stating we don't choose our beliefs, we ought to also not condemn anyone.

---

Do you feel any pride for being an Atheist? If you do, then this means you believe 1) you had a choice in the matter 2) it is praiseworthy to a degree. If you don't have pride in being an Atheist at all, then you would be consistent.

I have pride in being gay, too, it doesn't mean I chose to be gay.

Pride is felt when you feel there is a degree of praise. Perhaps this is another contradicting belief you have. You believe you didn't chose, yet you are proud of being gay. If you had no choice in the matter, you shouldn't be proud about it.

I'm not proud of being attracted to women, because I don't feel I chose to.

[The Grand Nudger]

I am not. I'm simply showing you my perspective and the human perspective in general.

Fair enough.

I am uncertain, but I believe so.

Down the rabbit hole we go, did you choose to believe that? Perhaps you see my confusion?

No we can't. We have to believe in those things to condemn them (even if we believe in contradicting notions like we don't chose to believe what we believe).

LOL, yes, Mystic, we can (and we do), what you're trying to argue is whether or not we -should-.

No you are reading too much into it. I am simply showing you that is what we believe and to be consistent with stating we don't choose our beliefs, we ought to also not condemn anyone.

Mea culpa, I simply assumed that since you offered it up, and continued to re-assert that we had a choice in our beliefs, that you were trying to establish that we did. Golly gee - I wonder what on earth would lead me to that assumption.....

[Mystic]

Nah Rhythm. You read too much into me and I arrogantly say, you don't give me enough credit . I like to remind people of their beliefs and to keep them consistent. I've already stated so many times that we can't prove free-will, so let alone that we chose our beliefs but rather they are properly basic from my perspective. Still you tend to always assume that I am proving properly basic beliefs by an illogical syllogism that goes somewhat like this:

1) I believe humans in general believe in free-will.
2) Therefore humans in general know we have free-will.
3) Therefore free-will is true.

I promise you, I don't believe in that.

[Mononoke]

*thread hop*

I think that beliefs are not always choices, though they might be. It's not a choice to get a song stuck in your head, and beliefs can be the same way. They can change without you noticing, too. You might also try to cling to beliefs and make yourself believe certain things, but that endeavour may or may not be successful. What you do with your beliefs, or whether you try to make yourself believe something, is of course a choice.

[The Grand Nudger]

LOL, nah, I give you plenty of credit bud, that's why our conversations are markedly different from the conversations I have with certain nutjobs, liars, and morons.

I've stayed pretty focused on whether or not we choose to believe things. Not whether or not the things we believe are true.