Poor Fundies.....Hell is A Literary Construct, Too!

[John V]

Hold it, this effect you're talking about is an implied insult? That's it? Christians get direct insults here every day. You don't seem concerned about it.

Those insults are mild compared to being told your lifestyle dictates that you deserve to burn in hell for eternity. I'll take being called an "asshole" over that any day.

To be frank, you're really coming across as a pussy with this argument.

Good ol' Christian sensitivity. Tell them them they deserve to burn in hell, and when they speak up about it, call them a "pussy."

The only thing I can't figure out is why Christians have a hard time figuring out why atheists can be so hostile towards them.

So do you prefer Tender Vittles or Meow Mix?

[Neo-Scholastic]

...mild compared to being told your lifestyle dictates that you deserve to burn in hell for eternity. I'll take being called an "asshole" over that any day.

A friend of mine called me an "asshole" (among other things) when I told him that his blow habit was ruining his life. In that case, I couldn't keep my mouth shut because I knew he needed to hear it. Not that it made a dent. Fortunately, his poor choices caught up with him. He had a breakdown and was forced into treatment.

I do think it is rude to volunteer your belief that someone that the consequences of their beliefs will lead them to hell. But if you are an atheist and you are participating on a debate forum about the topic, then I say you have opened yourself up to hear what most religious believers consider the hard truth.

Now personally, I hold out the hope that at least some of the godless will be shown mercy for reasons I explained earlier, even if it goes against sound doctrine.

[Faith No More]

A friend of mine called me an "asshole" (among other things) when I told him that his blow habit was ruining his life. In that case, I couldn't keep my mouth shut because I knew he needed to hear it. Not that it made a dent. Fortunately, his poor choices caught up with him. He had a breakdown and was forced into treatment.

Are you equating the detriment from a hard drug addiction to living life as an atheist?

I do think it is rude to volunteer your belief that someone that the consequences of their beliefs will lead them to hell. But if you are an atheist and you are participating on a debate forum about the topic, then I say you have opened yourself up to hear what most religious believers consider the hard truth.

Likewise, speaking what you consider the hard truth opens you up to how others perceive and feel about it.

Now personally, I hold out the hope that at least some of the godless will be shown mercy for reasons I explained earlier, even if it goes against sound doctrine.

As I hold out hope that you will come to the realization that you simply become worm-food when you die.

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So do you prefer Tender Vittles or Meow Mix?

[Neo-Scholastic]

Are you equating the detriment from a hard drug addiction to living life as an atheist?

I wanted to relate in to something real in my own life rather than make-up something. That was what came to mind. So while it's not the best analogy, I would say in response, if anything, atheism is more like a gateway drug in the sense that allows one to rationalize letting deeper sins into one's life or not recognizing ones' current sins. "If life is just a meaningless electro-chemical reaction then why not _____?" I think the threat of an purely intellectual atheism is relatively minor, since most retain some sense of goodness and truth without realizing the source. But the anti-theist, the kind that pisses and moans about "In God We Trust" on money*, has a real problem and he undermines the faith of the vulnerable.

To be fair, a twisted person can justify all kinds of horrors with a perverted interpretation of even the most benign faith. Which only goes to show that there are many ways to fail and few to succeed.

...the hard truth opens you up to how others perceive and feel about it.

Touche.

*I could care less myself about what's on the money, its just money.

[Cyberman]

I'm soooo proud of these Christians, gotta tell ya. They're such good sports, resorting to calling me mentally off when they have not the mental capacity themselves for a proper rebuttal.

Personally I suspect that you believe in God but are angry at him, and so are looking for reasons not to believe.

Does the opinion, or the number of people with similar suspicions, matter in the slightest?

[Faith No More]

I wanted to relate in to something real in my own life rather than make-up something. That was what came to mind. So while it's not the best analogy, I would say in response, if anything...

Okay. That's why I didn't jump the gun and automatically assume you meant the two to be totally analogous.

...atheism is more like a gateway drug in the sense that allows one to rationalize letting deeper sins into one's life or not recognizing ones' current sins.

How can I rationalize letting in something that I do not believe exists, or are you trying to suggest that being an atheist is simply deluding yourself into believing sin doesn't exist in order to revel in that sin?

Regardless, my life has actually drifted in the opposite direction. I am less guilty of things you would consider sinful now than I was ten years ago. Why would that be if I'm trying to rationalize a sinful life?

"If life is just a meaningless electro-chemical reaction then why not _____?"

I have come to the conclusion, Chad, that you believe that we are all slaves to objective meaning, and that any subjective meaning we humans can ascribe is ultimately meaningless. It's our ability to recognize and empathize towards others as sentient human beings whose experience of pain and pleasure is dependent upon our own actions that keeps us from getting to that "why not ____" phase, despite believing life is ultimately a "meaningless electro-chemical reaction."

I think the threat of an purely intellectual atheism is relatively minor, since most retain some sense of goodness and truth without realizing the source.

But we do recognize the source. It is we.

But the anti-theist, the kind that pisses and moans about "In God We Trust" on money*, has a real problem and he undermines the faith of the vulnerable.

"Undermines the faith of the vulnerable?" I don't follow...

[Neo-Scholastic]

How can I rationalize letting in something that I do not believe exists, or are you trying to suggest that being an atheist is simply deluding yourself into believing sin doesn't exist in order to revel in that sin?

You cannot revel in sin if you do not believe what you are doing is indeed a sin. Sin isn't just about stealing and shacking up. It's the little everyday things that slip into our heart if they go unattended: enjoying someone else's failure, that second look at a model' cleavage, leaving tags on clothes so you can return them after wearing them out, etc. I think without that extra prompt of religious conscience you can very easily not even be aware of how self-serving your own motives can be.

Regardless, my life has actually drifted in the opposite direction. I am less guilty of things you would consider sinful now than I was ten years ago.

That's good to hear. I believe many people find themselves less beholden the passions of youth as they age and settle into a responsible life.

...you believe that we are all slaves to objective meaning, and that any subjective meaning we humans can ascribe is ultimately meaningless.

Nearly. I think God grants you the liberty to choose the purpose to which you will put your gifts. So in that sense, I believe that everyone participates in creating their own meaning. At the same time I believe that purely physical process have no meaning without being assigned to them. Our ability to assign meaning depends on the ability of our non-physical being to impose it onto the physical. Otherwise you have a meaningless physical process assigning meaning to another physical process. All meaning, be it mathematical symbols, language, or logical propositions cannot be a part of the system it describes. The meaning of physical systems come from a higher level of order.

But we do recognize the source. It is we.

I cannot say the same for myself. The best I can do is to stay out of the way while the Lord works through me.

"Undermines the faith of the vulnerable?" I don't follow...

Some younger people may be less intellectual about their atheism and if they live it to its logical conclusion...well, we disagree on that. You probably think you've freed them from a cultural delusion, whereas I see something vital being stunted.

[smax]

Chad,

You are one of the few Christians on here that I actually like and respect. If you don't mind me asking, however, how did you manage to go from Atheism to Christianity using "logic"?

[Faith No More]

I think without that extra prompt of religious conscience you can very easily not even be aware of how self-serving your own motives can be.

I think you can very easily not be aware of(or not care about) how self-serving your own motives can be despite your religious beliefs. Likewise, I do not think religion plays much(if any) part in the ability to truly assess the results of our actions as I am not aware of any evidence that shows that to be true. I think that ability lies within us. Perhaps some people need religion to tap into that.

At the same time I believe that purely physical process have no meaning without being assigned to them.

Hypothetical question(and I realize that it is a difficult one for theists to answer and not a realistic scenario). Do you think there would be a significant change in your behavior and how you treated people if it was conclusively proven that god did not exist?

What makes you think that humans cannot find significance or meaning on their own?

I cannot say the same for myself. The best I can do is to stay out of the way while the Lord works through me.

I think that even if your god exists, you sell yourself short.

Some younger people may be less intellectual about their atheism and if they live it to its logical conclusion...well, we disagree on that. You probably think you've freed them from a cultural delusion, whereas I see something vital being stunted.

I disagree with what you believe the logical conclusion is, and yes, I think they would be freed from a cultural delusion. I think religion is responsible for stunting something vital.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Do you think there would be a significant change in your behavior and how you treated people if it was conclusively proven that god did not exist?

In my own case I did act differently when I stopped believing in god. I slowly became more motivated by civil obedience and preserving my reputation than I did for cultivating integrity or a genuine concern for others. And yes, I did things I very much regret, but at the time they seemed benign or trivial. YMMV

What makes you think that humans cannot find significance or meaning on their own?

I don't deny that they can. What I deny is that 'meaning' in the broadest sense of the term, a real relationship between signs and the things they signify, has no foundation apart from a higher order of reality than the physical universe.* For example, you can stack bricks without knowing the theory of gravity. Similarly, you can find purpose without knowing what lies behind your ability to do so.

...even if your god exists, you sell yourself short.

That's what she said. =-)

As for the rest, we just disagree.

*While I am aware of some physical theories that posit an emergent higher order within the physical universe, I personally find those theories less than compelling, since to me the very idea of emergent properties tacitly accepts some kind of transcendent order.

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how did you manage to go from Atheism to Christianity using "logic"?

It was an existential choice, similar to Kierkegaard. Faith is what you reason from not what you reason to.