A small thanks to the resident Theists..

[Godscreated]

Please show me I'm wrong

You were shown you are wrong. You claimed that nowhere in the bible does it say to kill disobedient children, and someone posted the verse from Deuteronomy showing that exact thing. Admit it and move on.

You're as dense as lead, I've explain those verses several times over the last three years, go look them up.

I've offered to explain those verses even though I know most will reject what I say.

Because you always come up with some extremely lame bullshit claim as to why a particular bible passage doesn't mean what it means.

I've explained Bible verses by what they say, just because you're to dense to understand them is not my fault.

But I'm interested, please lay on your bullshit interpretation of that passage and explain why it doesn't mean that unruly children should be killed. I'll start making popcorn.

Go look up what I've said in the past Mr. Leadhead, it will be the same as I would say now and I do not have the time to waste on people who do not care.

GC

[Bad Writer]

Because he's taking the text in the Bible at face value he's dense? Do we need to explain special pleading to you yet again, GC?

[Mystical]

Hey GC, thanks for stopping by!

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Tell me something, why do you keep bring up these above ^ verses I've already explained and no one has argued the explanation. Again, I say if you were in church you could not have been listening to teachings and why do I say this, because you do not listen here, all you know how to do is go to atheist sights and copy verses, or say I've not read the scriptures, sad, really sad.

Leviticus 20:9
For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.

You apparently have no idea what God was trying to accomplish with His chosen people, until you can come to this understanding you will never understand the OT. Nevertheless I'm going to explain this to you this time only, so if you want to throw out this verses again I'll just ignore you because of your ignorance.
The word curse in Lev. 20:9 is expounded upon in Deut. 21:18-21. The full meaning of the Lev. 20:9 is found in the verses in Deut. So now all you need to do is find the explanation I've given in the past and you'll have it.

Yeah uh, Godschild, I'm not doing that. State your explanation here, as I think you are confused about me even being there when you said it.

As far as I can tell based on common translations reached in a consensus by almost all Christian denominations, the word curse isn't even in Deuteronomy 21:18-21.

While traditionally accepted as the genuine words of Moses delivered on the eve of the occupation of Canaan, a broad consensus of modern scholars now see its origins in traditions from Israel (the northern kingdom) brought south to the Kingdom of Judah in the wake of the Assyrian destruction of Samaria (8th century BCE) and then adapted to a program of nationalist reform in the time of King Josiah (late 7th century), with the final form of the modern book emerging in the milieu of the return from the Babylonian exile during the late 6th century

...At the end of the Exile, when the Persians agreed that the Jews could return and rebuild the Temple, chapters 1–4 and 29–30 were added and Deuteronomy was made the introductory book to this history, so that a story about a people about to enter the Promised Land, became a story about a people about to return to the land. The legal sections of chapters 19–25 were expanded to meet new situations that had arisen, and chapters 31–34 were added as a new conclusion.

I just found that interesting.

2 Kings 2:23-24
He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys.

Oh boy, how ridiculous. Just to show you I'll give the effort, I went and looked up the Hebrew for tore and it does not indicate death, nor does any of the other translations of those verses I reviewed. Now that we have that out of the way let's examine the verses, those boys were not only mocking Elisha but, God as well. We know these boys came from Bethel which at the time was the center of pagan idol worship in Israel the Northern Kingdom. These boys were telling Elisha not to come to Bethel and bring God's word because no one there wanted to hear it. So God punished those boys for their mockery and rejection of His prophet and His word.

I too looked up the Hebrew for tore and it indicates to be made into morsels, to be plucked up and torn to pieces.

In any case if you're actually saying what I think you're saying: those boys weren't killed, just mauled so that makes it okay. I'd like to know from where in the text it indicates to you that those children weren't ripped to shreds by two bears

You're okay with this happening to kids in the name of your god then, huh? You don't think any sort of injury to a child in those times wasn't fatal?

Oh, and then there's these.. But I'm sure you just read right over those or who knows.. Maybe you liked it.

---

Psalm 137

8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us.
9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

Psalms 21:9-10
If you make God angry, he'll burn you and your children to death.

Psalms 2:8-9
If you ask God, he'll force heathens to be your slaves and help you "dash them in pieces."

Psalms
The God of peace teaches us how to kill our neighbors in war.

3:7 Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God: for thou hast smitten all mine enemies upon the cheek bone; thou hast broken the teeth of the ungodly.

18:40 Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies; that I might destroy them that hate me. (18:40-43)
God helps believers kill their enemies.
(18:40) "Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies; that I might destroy them that hate me."

(18:41) "They cried, but there was none to save them: even unto the LORD, but he answered them not."
Can God be found?

(18:42) "I beat them small as the dust before the wind: I did cast them out as the dirt in the streets."

(18:43) "Thou hast made me the head of the heathen: a people whom I have not known shall serve me."

18:41 They cried, but there was none to save them: even unto the LORD, but he answered them not.
18:42 Then did I beat them small as the dust before the wind: I did cast them out as the dirt in the streets.
18:43 Thou hast delivered me from the strivings of the people; and thou hast made me the head of the heathen: a people whom I have not known shall serve me.

21:8 Thine hand shall find out all thine enemies: thy right hand shall find out those that hate thee.

(21:9-10) "Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them. Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men."

21:12 Therefore shalt thou make them turn their back, when thou shalt make ready thine arrows upon thy strings against the face of them.

58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

58:6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD

58:7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.

58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

59:8 But thou, O LORD, shalt laugh at them; thou shalt have all the heathen in derision.

59:10 The God of my mercy shall prevent me: God shall let me see my desire upon mine enemies.

68:21 But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses.

68:23 That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same.

101:8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the LORD.

44:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:

49:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. (149:5-8)
The saints praise God while they kill and enslave "the heathen."
(149:5) "Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds."

(149:6) "Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand."

(149:7) "To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people."

(149:8) "To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron."

149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;
149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;

Numbers
25:4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.
25:5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.
25:6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
25:7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
25:8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
25:9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
25:10 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
25:11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
25:12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
25:13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.

---

You pick them out two at a time and I'll try and explain each one, if you do not then that's fine. I'm not sitting here and going through all of them and making a ridiculously long post. Besides I do not have that kind of time, it will be much easier to do two at a time.

GC

I don't think you can explain moralistic murder to me but you're sure free to try.

Psalm 137

8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us.
9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

---

Hey GC, thanks for stopping by!

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Tell me something, why do you keep bring up these above ^ verses I've already explained and no one has argued the explanation. Again, I say if you were in church you could not have been listening to teachings and why do I say this, because you do not listen here, all you know how to do is go to atheist sights and copy verses, or say I've not read the scriptures, sad, really sad.

Leviticus 20:9
For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.

You apparently have no idea what God was trying to accomplish with His chosen people, until you can come to this understanding you will never understand the OT. Nevertheless I'm going to explain this to you this time only, so if you want to throw out this verses again I'll just ignore you because of your ignorance.
The word curse in Lev. 20:9 is expounded upon in Deut. 21:18-21. The full meaning of the Lev. 20:9 is found in the verses in Deut. So now all you need to do is find the explanation I've given in the past and you'll have it.

Yeah uh, Godschild, [u]I'm not doing that. State your explanation here, as I think you are confused about me even being there when you said it.

As far as I can tell based on common translations reached in a consensus by almost all Christian denominations, the word curse isn't even in Deuteronomy 21:18-21.

While traditionally accepted as the genuine words of Moses delivered on the eve of the occupation of Canaan, a broad consensus of modern scholars now see its origins in traditions from Israel (the northern kingdom) brought south to the Kingdom of Judah in the wake of the Assyrian destruction of Samaria (8th century BCE) and then adapted to a program of nationalist reform in the time of King Josiah (late 7th century), with the final form of the modern book emerging in the milieu of the return from the Babylonian exile during the late 6th century

...At the end of the Exile, when the Persians agreed that the Jews could return and rebuild the Temple, chapters 1–4 and 29–30 were added and Deuteronomy was made the introductory book to this history, so that a story about a people about to enter the Promised Land, became a story about a people about to return to the land. The legal sections of chapters 19–25 were expanded to meet new situations that had arisen, and chapters 31–34 were added as a new conclusion.

I just found that interesting.

2 Kings 2:23-24
He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys.

Oh boy, how ridiculous. Just to show you I'll give the effort, I went and looked up the Hebrew for tore and it does not indicate death, nor does any of the other translations of those verses I reviewed. Now that we have that out of the way let's examine the verses, those boys were not only mocking Elisha but, God as well. We know these boys came from Bethel which at the time was the center of pagan idol worship in Israel the Northern Kingdom. These boys were telling Elisha not to come to Bethel and bring God's word because no one there wanted to hear it. So God punished those boys for their mockery and rejection of His prophet and His word.

I too looked up the Hebrew for tore and it indicates to be made into morsels, to be plucked up and torn to pieces.

In any case if you're actually saying what I think you're saying: those boys weren't killed, just mauled so that makes it okay. I'd like to know from where in the text it indicates to you that those children weren't ripped to shreds by two bears

1:05
http://video.nationalgeographic.com/vide...zzly-bear/

You're okay with this happening to kids in the name of your god then, huh? You don't think any sort of injury to a child in those times wasn't fatal?

Oh, and then there's these.. But I'm sure you just read right over those or who knows.. Maybe you liked it.

---

Psalm 137

8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us.
9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

Psalms 21:9-10
If you make God angry, he'll burn you and your children to death.

Psalms 2:8-9
If you ask God, he'll force heathens to be your slaves and help you "dash them in pieces."

Psalms
The God of peace teaches us how to kill our neighbors in war.

3:7 Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God: for thou hast smitten all mine enemies upon the cheek bone; thou hast broken the teeth of the ungodly.

18:40 Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies; that I might destroy them that hate me. (18:40-43)
God helps believers kill their enemies.
(18:40) "Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies; that I might destroy them that hate me."

(18:41) "They cried, but there was none to save them: even unto the LORD, but he answered them not."
Can God be found?

(18:42) "I beat them small as the dust before the wind: I did cast them out as the dirt in the streets."

(18:43) "Thou hast made me the head of the heathen: a people whom I have not known shall serve me."

18:41 They cried, but there was none to save them: even unto the LORD, but he answered them not.
18:42 Then did I beat them small as the dust before the wind: I did cast them out as the dirt in the streets.
18:43 Thou hast delivered me from the strivings of the people; and thou hast made me the head of the heathen: a people whom I have not known shall serve me.

21:8 Thine hand shall find out all thine enemies: thy right hand shall find out those that hate thee.

(21:9-10) "Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them. Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men."

21:12 Therefore shalt thou make them turn their back, when thou shalt make ready thine arrows upon thy strings against the face of them.

58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

58:6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD

58:7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.

58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

59:8 But thou, O LORD, shalt laugh at them; thou shalt have all the heathen in derision.

59:10 The God of my mercy shall prevent me: God shall let me see my desire upon mine enemies.

68:21 But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses.

68:23 That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same.

101:8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the LORD.

44:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:

49:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. (149:5-8)
The saints praise God while they kill and enslave "the heathen."
(149:5) "Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds."

(149:6) "Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand."

(149:7) "To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people."

(149:8) "To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron."

149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand;
149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;

Numbers
25:4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.
25:5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.
25:6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
25:7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
25:8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
25:9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
25:10 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
25:11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.
25:12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
25:13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.

---

You pick them out two at a time and I'll try and explain each one, if you do not then that's fine. I'm not sitting here and going through all of them and making a ridiculously long post. Besides I do not have that kind of time, it will be much easier to do two at a time.

GC

I don't think you can explain moralistic murder to me but you're sure free to try.

Psalm 137

8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us.
9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away:[u] like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

[catfish]

You said: "I'm aware you don't believe Aeon to be an indefinite amount of time"
You have the same lack of reading comprehension as the others it may seem.

I meant infinite fishy. I corrected it later. http://atheistforums.org/thread-20756-po...#pid504393

See what I mean about giberish? This is one reason I don't bother responding to you most of the time. You didn't correct it, you defended it by saying that's what you said (were you lying?), not that's what you meant. But that doesn't even matter, it was all just a deflection tactic used by yourself to avoid supporting your bare assertion.

You seem to be the one with a lack of reading comprehension (or justifiable point) because you can't seem to even address directly the evidence I brought to you.

LOL, I told you I'd laugh at this. It's been addressed. Your whole premise of " Any amount of time in torment is uncalled for by a benevolent creator--who, by the way, was described by the very same word therefore he's either not eternal or everything else is eternal" is incorrect as the word used to describe God in your quoted verse is aidios. Will you deny this one more time for my amusememnt please?
Again though, it doesn't matter as this is yet another deflection ploy to avoid your burden of proof.

In any case, I retract my request and officially ask you to fuck off, troll. My half passed out dog curled up next to me has more to say than you do.

Right, still refusing to admit that you can't provide proof of this bare assertion:

Aractus why exactly don't you believe the Bible is the unerring word of god? It says it is, after all. And it says to follow it or you will go to hell. ...
<snip>

Proof of claim?

[Bad Writer]

Catty, you seriously need to do something better with your time. Go find a soup kitchen and volunteer. Go work at an animal rescue shelter. Go to a meet and greet and interact with real people. Your life will be better for you and all around you.

[Captain Colostomy]

...and an expected deflection in 5...4...3...2...

LOL, that question is his deflection.

The wheels on the bus go round and round,

round and round, round and round.

The wheels on the bus go round and round,

all through the town.


Your continued refusal to acknowledge from whence you stand speaks volumes to your character and credibility. I assume it's because you're unsure of what you yourself believe, and you take satisfaction in taking pot shots at those who do. It's your perogative, but it smacks of dishonesty.

I may be wrong, but I don't expect you to be forthright in correcting me. Hell, even if you try, no one else whose noticed your MO will blame me for doubting anything you say.

(I also suspect you have a baby penis, but that's a topic for another day.)

[catfish]

The wheels on the bus go round and round,

round and round, round and round.

The wheels on the bus go round and round,

all through the town.


Your continued refusal to acknowledge from whence you stand speaks volumes to your character and credibility. I assume it's because you're unsure of what you yourself believe, and you take satisfaction in taking pot shots at those who do. It's your perogative, but it smacks of dishonesty.

I may be wrong, but I don't expect you to be forthright in correcting me. Hell, even if you try, no one else whose noticed your MO will blame me for doubting anything you say.

(I also suspect you have a baby penis, but that's a topic for another day.)

[Mystical]

[Captain Colostomy]

So much for a productive dialogue.

[Heir Apparent]

Surely that's already been done by 3-4 people already, probably more. I don't need to parrot what they've said already.

And I don't see my beliefs being challenged. Would you like to?

No one has been able to discredit my beliefs, want to have a go at it or are you going to let an opportunity flit by. You have no idea what others have said.

GC

On second thought, I've changed my mind. You say you've been here three years? That's all the reason I need right there to suspect that you're one of those believers. The ones who are so deeply dug into their little worlds that they won't even consider what anyone tells them. Therefore, there is no point in repeating what I already said, or bringing up any further counter arguments.

That or your an extremely dedicated (and sad) Poe/troll.

I just have to ask though, what IS your purpose here? In three years you must have realized that no one here will be converted.