Outsider's Test of Faith (OTF)

[xpastor]

John W. Loftus is a former evangelical pastor. While he was still in the church, he took an advanced degree in Apologetics under the well-known William Lane Craig. He has since become an atheist and has written a few books on the subject of religion. I will take the following word-for-word from The Christian Delusion: Why Faith Fails.

1. Rational people in distinct geographical locations around the globe adopt and defend a wide diversity of religious faiths due to their upbringing and cultural heritage. This is the religious diversity thesis.
2. Consequently it seems very likely that adopting one's religious faith is not merely a matter of independent rational judgment but is causally dependent on cultural conditions to an overwhelming degree. This is the religious dependency thesis.
3. Hence the odds are highly likely that any given adopted religious faith is false.
4. So the best way to test one's adopted religious faith is from the perspective of an outsider with the same level of skepticism used to evaluate other religious faiths. This expresses the OTF.

So here is the Outsider's Test of Faith if any of our theists wish to take it. Frankly, I doubt that any of them will give it a test drive.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

John W. Loftus is a former evangelical pastor. While he was still in the church, he took an advanced degree in Apologetics under the well-known William Lane Craig.

A what? Those things exist?! Ok that must be the stupidest thing someone can study. Please say that it is.

As for the OTF, I know theists who would openly admit that if they weren't brought up the way they were, they wouldn't believe, but they somehow do not question beyond that ...

[Cinjin]

So here is the Outsider's Test of Faith if any of our theists wish to take it. Frankly, I doubt that any of them will give it a test drive.

Where is the Test?

[freedomfromforum]

I voted for "None of the above". Do I win?

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

So we finally meet...

[Zen Badger]

John W. Loftus is a former evangelical pastor. While he was still in the church, he took an advanced degree in Apologetics under the well-known William Lane Craig.

A what? Those things exist?! Ok that must be the stupidest thing someone can study. Please say that it is.

As for the OTF, I know theists who would openly admit that if they weren't brought up the way they were, they wouldn't believe, but they somehow do not question beyond that ...

They do, the only difference though is that you're not allowed to do your thesis in crayon.

[MindForgedManacle]

I quite like Loftus at times. Of course, Bill Craig refuses to debate him, likely because he's a former student and knows all of Craig's debate tactics and arguments.

[Lion IRC]

John W. Loftus is a former evangelical pastor. While he was still in the church, he took an advanced degree in Apologetics under the well-known William Lane Craig. He has since become an atheist and has written a few books on the subject of religion. I will take the following word-for-word from The Christian Delusion: Why Faith Fails.

1. Rational people in distinct geographical locations around the globe adopt and defend a wide diversity of religious faiths due to their upbringing and cultural heritage. This is the religious diversity thesis.
2. Consequently it seems very likely that adopting one's religious faith is not merely a matter of independent rational judgment but is causally dependent on cultural conditions to an overwhelming degree. This is the religious dependency thesis.
3. Hence the odds are highly likely that any given adopted religious faith is false.
4. So the best way to test one's adopted religious faith is from the perspective of an outsider with the same level of skepticism used to evaluate other religious faiths. This expresses the OTF.

So here is the Outsider's Test of Faith if any of our theists wish to take it. Frankly, I doubt that any of them will give it a test drive.

The problem here, apart from the genetic fallacy, is that people in the United States are not practicing a religion which originated in the United States.

Jews, born and raised in America, are practicing their religion in a country a very long way away in time and distance from where Judaism originated.

So the argument that....oh, youre only Jewish because you were born in Brooklyn is a fail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_popu...rban_areas

---

My religion formally got started in Mesopotamia thousands of years ago Mr Loftus.

[thesummerqueen]

No, I was only Jewish because I was born into a Jewish family - no matter where that family was. You're deliberately misinterpreting what people mean by that statement, which refers to the cultural surroundings someone is raised in. Had I not had such an overbearing family, I might have been Christian, being as that's the predominant religion in America. But probably not, since I quickly figured out Judaism was shite anyway and looked at the rest and said, "fuck it."

[Lion IRC]

"...not merely a matter of independent rational judgment but is causally dependent...''

Read it carefully. It says causally dependent.

The city where I live is NOT the CAUSE of my religion.
My parents are not the CAUSE of Abrahamic monotheism.