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RE: Two consenting adults, including relatives?
December 4, 2013 at 11:46 pm
(December 4, 2013 at 11:35 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: What about teenagers? What about them?
Quote:Should doctors be allowed to prescribe oral contraceptive pills to 14 year old girls?
Yes.
Quote:How about all those gay school kids who deserve tolerance for their sexual behaviour? Are they having consensual sex or non-consensual?
Now, see, this is a GOOD question. I taught high school for many years, and there were kids who were mature enough to make sexual decisions and kids who were not. Whether they were mature enough or not, most of them were engaged in some kind of sexual behavior, and though it breaks my heart to see kids make decisions they're not ready for, very few of them consulted me or any adult. When consulted, my advice was to be as safe as possible- physically and emotionally. I'll elaborate if you like.
Quote:I'm just trying to find out where True North is on your moral compass.
I don't know if true North exists on the sexual compass. True South does exist (assuming South is bad, which wounds me because I'm Texan)- it's forcing someone to do something against their will.
Quote:Can underage people who are committed and truly in love, get married if they promise not to have sex?
Well, they CAN, and they do, all the time. Should they? My opinion is no- I think kids should wait until they have a little experience and education under their belts before marrying. That said, I have a few friends who married before 18 and don't regret it (and they're in their 40s now).
But you and I will differ in that I don't think it's wrong for teens to experiment with sex, although I would hope that they have comprehensive sex ed to guide them in their decisions. I have no regrets about my own teen sexual experiences, and most of those were with much older men.
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RE: Two consenting adults, including relatives?
December 4, 2013 at 11:51 pm
(This post was last modified: December 4, 2013 at 11:53 pm by Ryantology.)
(December 4, 2013 at 11:35 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: What about teenagers? What about teenagers?
Quote:Should doctors be allowed to prescribe oral contraceptive pills to 14 year old girls?
Yes.
Quote:How about all those gay school kids who deserve tolerance for their sexual behaviour? Are they having consensual sex or non-consensual?
If they aren't being forced, or they are not having sex with adults, I would say it's consensual.
Quote:I'm just trying to find out where True North is on your moral compass.
I'm trying to figure out what the hell this has to do with anything.
Quote:Can underage people who are committed and truly in love, get married if they promise not to have sex?
I still don't get what the point of this question is. I get the feeling you're leading into some inane slippery slope argument. Next thing, it'll be asking me whether kids should marry dogs or something.
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RE: Two consenting adults, including relatives?
December 5, 2013 at 1:33 am
(December 4, 2013 at 11:35 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: What about teenagers?
Can I just express how strange I find it that you opted to respond to a quote about sexual activity between adults by doing nothing but bringing up children? 
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RE: Two consenting adults, including relatives?
December 5, 2013 at 1:47 am
It's about marriage.
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RE: Two consenting adults, including relatives?
December 5, 2013 at 2:07 am
(December 5, 2013 at 1:47 am)Lion IRC Wrote: It's about marriage.
Yeah, I got that, but there was a pretty clear qualifier at the end of the quote you were responding to, that said consenting adults.
See, there are actually reasons why one wouldn't want children to marry, mainly due to the fact that they aren't fully equipped to give informed consent yet. Hell, there are some adults that find that hard; that's why we restrict what children can do, and educate them to prepare them for the future. At a certain point, when they become equipped to deal with some freedom, there's little we can do to stop them making poor sexual choices, but what we can do is educate them and give them means to stop those poor choices becoming permanent ones. Hence, most of us would not allow children to marry, but would allow them birth control.
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RE: Two consenting adults, including relatives?
December 5, 2013 at 2:38 am
What about teenagers?
If gay teens in schools ought to be allowed to freely express their 'born-that-way' sexual preferences, then why can't they give consent to have sex... err... I mean express their Equal Love... err... I mean get legally married so people will stop discriminating against them?
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RE: Two consenting adults, including relatives?
December 5, 2013 at 2:41 am
(This post was last modified: December 5, 2013 at 2:42 am by Ryantology.)
(December 5, 2013 at 1:47 am)Lion IRC Wrote: It's about marriage.
It's about you trying to dishonestly imply that we're hypocrites because we believe in any kind of restrictions on who can marry what.
(December 5, 2013 at 2:38 am)Lion IRC Wrote: What about teenagers?
If gay teens in schools ought to be allowed to freely express their 'born-that-way' sexual preferences, then why can't they give consent to have sex... err... I mean express their Equal Love... err... I mean get legally married so people will stop discriminating against them?
Case in point.
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RE: Two consenting adults, including relatives?
December 5, 2013 at 2:48 am
(December 5, 2013 at 2:38 am)Lion IRC Wrote: What about teenagers?
If gay teens in schools ought to be allowed to freely express their 'born-that-way' sexual preferences, then why can't they give consent to have sex... err... I mean express their Equal Love... err... I mean get legally married so people will stop discriminating against them?
When I talked about children equipped to deal with some form of freedom, I was talking about teenagers.
As to your questions here, the answer to the first one is the same as the answer would be for a straight teen; nobody is denying that teenagers have sexual orientations, nor that they have sex. The issue is that they still aren't developed to a stage where they can make informed decisions. So, while gay teens don't deserve to be messed with for being gay, any more than straight teens should for being straight, they're still in a position where their ability to make life choices requires some restrictions. Incidentally, the age of consent where I am is sixteen.
There's no double standard here; we occasionally have to draw lines, and changing those doesn't mean that we have to allow everything. In fact, I'd say that the lines for age restrictions on marriage, drawn in part from actual observations about human biology and growth, are more well grounded than the ones you're seeking to preserve about homosexuality, being based as they are in magic and the commandments of a space wizard.
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RE: Two consenting adults, including relatives?
December 5, 2013 at 2:58 am
(This post was last modified: December 5, 2013 at 3:21 am by Lion IRC.)
(December 5, 2013 at 2:41 am)Ryantology Wrote: (December 5, 2013 at 1:47 am)Lion IRC Wrote: It's about marriage.
It's about you trying to dishonestly imply that we're hypocrites because we believe in any kind of restrictions on who can marry what.
(December 5, 2013 at 2:38 am)Lion IRC Wrote: What about teenagers?
If gay teens in schools ought to be allowed to freely express their 'born-that-way' sexual preferences, then why can't they give consent to have sex... err... I mean express their Equal Love... err... I mean get legally married so people will stop discriminating against them?
Case in point.
I'm not calling anyone that horrible name 'hypocrite'
...yet.
But I will if I start getting a whiff of that stench called... having a double standard, especially when you can't seem to explain why animals can't give consent (as if its even needed in a world full of abattoirs and caged animals)
Why exactly does the (adult) gay rights lobby pursue their 'tolerance' agenda in the Boy Scouts? In schools? On kids TV shows like Glee?
Gay kids should come out of the closet.
And do what?
(December 4, 2013 at 5:16 pm)Chad32 Wrote: We all know homosexuality is a hot topic. Many people agree with homosexual marriage under the idea that adults should be able to do what they want, as long as everything is consentual.
Should we include relatives under that as well. Most people are against brothers and sisters making love because it's inbreeding, but not all marriages are for making babies. Does anyone think it will come to that?
I guess the topic of polygamy could come up too, which many christians are against for some odd reason. Most people who were married in the bible were polygamists, after all.
If I had posted this I would get done for trolling a slippery slope homophobic agenda.
Well done Chad32!
The Op exposes one small part of a great big elephant sitting right there in the middle of the room.
Namely, how are lawyers and judges going to stop this whole definition of marriage thing from unraveling.
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RE: Two consenting adults, including relatives?
December 5, 2013 at 3:55 am
This topic is getting very confused, very quickly.
The OP asks a fascinating question on incestuous gay marriage and I'd say we need to address that one before we go off all over the place on who else should be allowed to get married, have sex, express their sexuality and so on and so forth.
IMHO the whole point of the gay marriage issue was that a same sex couple should be allowed the same rights as a heterosexual couple in that they should be allowed to marry.
If this is the case then I would say that the same sex couple, if they wish to marry, have to accept the same restrictions, rules and guidelines as a heterosexual couple if they are to marry.
If society deems that relations can't marry then it applies equally to both homosexual couples as it does to heterosexual ones.
Whilst the original rules for marriage probably did have a basis in the potential impact on progeny of close relations marrying I don't think that is the issue.
Conversely if same sex marriages were to allow incestuous relationships then denying the same right to heterosexual marriages is discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
The issue here is marriage - not the sexual acts themselves.
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