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"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
I think laws should have a morale base, but not a religious one.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
February 21, 2010 at 4:23 am (This post was last modified: February 21, 2010 at 6:16 pm by Oldandeasilyconfused.)
(February 21, 2010 at 2:59 am)tackattack Wrote: I think laws should have a morale base, but not a religious one.
On whose moral values should they be based? On what moral imperatives and from what moral authority?
Your position,like mine, derives from your world view. We differ fundamentally.
My position is that humans are simply animals, a form of primate, just another temporary species amongst tens of thousand and no more important than any other.[except to ourselves,we consider us the most important species in existence)
Moral values are pragmatic,with a survival value. They are devised by men,not some transcendental power, as needed,and ignored when when necessary,which is often.(you know,like the US constitution) Because needs differ widely,there are no universal moral absolutes.
Of course that doesn't stop people from claiming there are such moral laws. They solve moral dilemmas by the simple expedient of changing the meaning of words. Eg 'All men are created equal, actually meant "all men are created equal,except slaves."
"Thou shalt not kill "actually means "Thou shalt commit no murder",for which people have invented loopholes you can drive a truck through.EG It's not murder to kill an enemy,even if you start the war without cause. 'Collateral damage"(non combatant men,women and children) is not murder as it really was an accident and they shouldn't have bloody well been there.
Capital punishment is just fine, although you shouldn't execute children (or put them in prison with adults)or execute the mentally deficient. Texas gets around that by trying children as adults whenever it feels like,and by changing the definition of 'mentally impaired'
The basis of the law is pragmatic and political, its purpose is to protect the status quo. I've long found the humbug about morality and justice sick making.
Yeah, Tacky, I reckon we differ at fairly fundamental level. However, I think society is pretty safe from both of us.
Quote:Human thinking not Christian teachings, would have been better word usage, and I think that was the point trying to be made.
No, it was written correct the first time.......Just as stated before..
Quote:then why do so many Christians claim that our government is based on their "principles?"
Keyword...in bold
You can't tell me living in the U.S. that you have not heard those words spoke, either in person, T.V., Radio, newspaper articles, etc. etc. etc. etc.
You made your statement on better word usage and then start posting what you think "Christians" believe by quoting scripture..... .Come on Tack......lol
February 21, 2010 at 6:16 pm (This post was last modified: February 21, 2010 at 6:19 pm by tackattack.)
@ padriac- If the basis of the law is pragmatic and political, its purpose is to protect the status quo, ergo it's moral authority should come from the status quo, IMO
(February 21, 2010 at 4:41 pm)Samson Wrote:
TACK QUOTE:
Quote:Human thinking not Christian teachings, would have been better word usage, and I think that was the point trying to be made.
No, it was written correct the first time.......Just as stated before..
"then why do so many Christians claim that our government is based on their "principles?""
Keyword...in bold
You can't tell me living in the U.S. that you have not heard those words spoke, either in person, T.V., Radio, newspaper articles, etc. etc. etc. etc.
You made your statement on better word usage and then start posting what you think "Christians" believe by quoting scripture..... .Come on Tack......lol
Yes I've heard that phrase many times. Lots of people use words without understanding their connotation or meaning , with disregard to how their interpreted. I fully agree that the majority of Christians I've met can't seperate their personal moral standards from the rules set in the bible. If they did, upon closer inspection, they would realize that what they allow themselves to do in their life isn't in line with the teachings of Jesus. So while a lot of Chrsitiasns believe that the US is based off their Christian taught morals, in actuality it's based off of a moralistic status quo based on location and time. So I hold to my rewording and respectfully agree to disagree.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
Quote:1 - If God is omnipotent (all-powerful), why did he take six days to create everything? Why not speak everything into existence all at once?
I'm not a Biblical literalist, so this doesn't really apply
Quote:3 - If God is so perfect, then why did he create something so imperfect allowing pain, suffering and daily atrocities?
Would you really be happy in a world that's nothing more than a giant play-pen, where nothing you say or do makes any difference?
Quote:4 - Why did the little old lady that God healed one Sunday need her walker to get around again next Sunday? Was she only temporarily worthy of a healing?
...?
Quote:5 - How did Noah fit the millions and millions of species of animals on this planet into his ark? It doesn't take a mathematical genius to realize the physical impossibility of this.
Again, not a Biblical literalist. I'll just skip the rest that don't apply for this reason.
Quote:8 - How is it that the bible explains the earth to be 6,000 to 8,000 years old when we know that dinosaur bones are at least 65 million years old? This isn't the only example of our planet's age by any means, either.
I must have missed the passage that says the earth is 6000 years old...
Quote:9 - Why can't the all-powerful God forgive someone of their sins after they die? Example: A Christian man that is seemingly on God's good list makes a stupid decision and decides to drink a little too much at the fish fry. On his way home he crashes into a mini-van killing a mother, her two children and his self. This man led a very faithful life and made one stupid, yet grave mistake. If this man did not ask for forgiveness of his sins before the electrical activity in his brain ceased, then God will judge him and send him to hell to burn for eternity.
In Judaism there is no Hell. Once again I'll just skip the rest that don't apply to me for this reason.
Quote:11 - If Jesus died on the cross and spent three days in hell to pay for the sins of the world, then why would we have to go to hell ourselves and pay for them again? God is then, in essence, being paid for our sins twice. With that said, was Jesus' sacrifice not worthy enough? If that is the case, why should we care that he died for our sins if his sacrifice means nothing at all?
I'm not Christian, but as I understand Jesus is said to have gone to Hades to open the gate of heaven to the believers who lived before Christ, not the same place as Hell.
Quote:12 - If God wants us all to follow and worship him, why didn't he create us as such? *Your expected answer will be addressed in the next question.
Free will, and...
Quote:13 - What good is it for us to have free will if the intention is for us not to use it? Sure, we can use our free will, but we will burn in hell for eternity if we do. Russian roulette, anybody? It sounds like a set-up to me.
You may as well say "what good is free will if I don't get to murder?"
Quote:14 - In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, why would God kill Lot's wife, Sarah, by turning her into a pillar of salt for simply looking in the wrong direction?
It wasn't as simple as her "looking in the wrong direction", she directly disobeyed God.
Quote:18 - If God is omnipotent, why does he not just show himself to all of us, all at once, thereby ending this game of free will and temptation?
"Dear God, I would like to be a mindless automaton.
Sincerely,
Whatever idiot wrote this article."
Quote:22 - Christians argue evolution by asking why there aren't any half-ape/half-men walking around today, right? Why don't we see giants, fiery talking serpents, talking donkeys and many other mythical creatures that are described in the Bible?
That's a tremendous generalization. Only creationists argue argue against evolution, that hardly equals all Christians. Also, not everyone is a Biblical literalist. Damn, this guy.
Quote:23 - If we are to only have sex for the purpose of pro-creation, and to do so outside of the scope of pro-creation is sinful, then why would God create us with an over abundance of nerve endings in our reproductive organs making sex extremely pleasurable? It sounds like yet another set-up.
I can't speak for Christianity, but in Judaism sex is actually a mitzvah (translated something like "good-deed" or "commandment").
Quote:28 - If God's word is supposed to be the accurate word of God himself, how are we supposed to trust it enough to model our lives after it 100% when hundreds of books were excluded from the original text throughout so many translations and revisions in history?
The Tanakh has existed in more or less in the same form for a very long time.
Quote:29 - Why is there no evidence of any of the miracles performed by God? None whatsoever.
Free will. Also most miracles described in the Bible could have come about by natural means.
Quote:31 - If you believe that your eternal life is more important than your physical life and you believe that all children are innocent in the eyes of God, why not kill your children so they are guaranteed to go to heaven? You can't tell me that it is because killing is a sin. First of all, you could repent thereafter and be forgiven. Secondly, if you would sacrifice your life for your child who is about to be hit by a train, and you believe your eternal life is more important than this life, then it would stand to reason that you should kill your children to ensure their entrance into heaven before they are old enough to be held accountable for being a creature of sin, right?
This is stupid. We're supposed to live this life as well as we can, why would we throw that away?
Quote:35 - Imagine that I had the power and ability to feed millions and end all suffering. Now, imagine that I simply chose not to do so because these millions of people that are suffering did not like me. You would probably like me even less then, right? Then why does God get a 'get out of jail free card' on that one? Wait a minute, 'God's plan,' right? Gotcha.
Unless this guy is an all-powerful being who exists outside of time, this analogy sucks ass.
Quote:36 - Why are more atrocities committed in the name of God than anything else?
Proof?
Quote:38 - Building upon the previous question, if it is almost impossible for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven, then why would God create heaven as having pearly gates, streets of gold and many mansions? It sounds like he wants us to be poor in life so that we will want to be rich in the afterlife, maybe? Is God using the sinful value of greed to attract humans to believe in him? Does that make any sense whatsoever?
What? This guy's making shit up and he knows it. No where in the Tanakh or "New Testament" is heaven ever described as such.
Quote:42 - Seeing as though everything we, including Christians, enjoy in the modern world is a product of science, why do Christians so fervently deny factual scientific evidence that disproves so many aspects of the bible and their religion as a whole?
Once again this guy seems to assume Christian = extreme fundamentalist.
That is a whole other argument, tack, not to mention a real can of worms.
I have no doubt that there are scads of people who maintain that. We hear them bitch and moan about "activist judges" all the time. But the law also grows to incorporate new realities. That's why Rosa Parks no longer had to sit at the back of the bus.
There are far too many people walking around unsupervised who think the US is the same nation it was in 1820. It is not.
February 21, 2010 at 7:08 pm (This post was last modified: February 21, 2010 at 10:37 pm by Shell B.)
Quote:1 - If God is omnipotent (all-powerful), why did he take six days to create everything? Why not speak everything into existence all at once?
I'm not a Biblical literalist, so this doesn't really apply
If it doesn't apply, why did you bother? It's addressed to Christians.
Quote:3 - If God is so perfect, then why did he create something so imperfect allowing pain, suffering and daily atrocities?
Would you really be happy in a world that's nothing more than a giant play-pen, where nothing you say or do makes any difference?
The author did not suggest that such a world would make him happy, though I am sure it would be fun. The author was pointing out the fact that if god were perfect than he wouldn't have created such things as childhood leukemia, pedophilia, genocide, etc.
Quote:4 - Why did the little old lady that God healed one Sunday need her walker to get around again next Sunday? Was she only temporarily worthy of a healing?
...?
You've never heard of people being "healed" temporarily?
Quote:5 - How did Noah fit the millions and millions of species of animals on this planet into his ark? It doesn't take a mathematical genius to realize the physical impossibility of this.
Again, not a Biblical literalist. I'll just skip the rest that don't apply for this reason.
Thank goodness.
Quote:8 - How is it that the bible explains the earth to be 6,000 to 8,000 years old when we know that dinosaur bones are at least 65 million years old? This isn't the only example of our planet's age by any means, either.
I must have missed the passage that says the earth is 6000 years old...
Quote:9 - Why can't the all-powerful God forgive someone of their sins after they die? Example: A Christian man that is seemingly on God's good list makes a stupid decision and decides to drink a little too much at the fish fry. On his way home he crashes into a mini-van killing a mother, her two children and his self. This man led a very faithful life and made one stupid, yet grave mistake. If this man did not ask for forgiveness of his sins before the electrical activity in his brain ceased, then God will judge him and send him to hell to burn for eternity.
In Judaism there is no Hell. Once again I'll just skip the rest that don't apply to me for this reason.
*sigh*
Quote:11 - If Jesus died on the cross and spent three days in hell to pay for the sins of the world, then why would we have to go to hell ourselves and pay for them again? God is then, in essence, being paid for our sins twice. With that said, was Jesus' sacrifice not worthy enough? If that is the case, why should we care that he died for our sins if his sacrifice means nothing at all?
I'm not Christian, but as I understand Jesus is said to have gone to Hades to open the gate of heaven to the believers who lived before Christ, not the same place as Hell.
I'm not Christian either, but I don't think that Christians believe in Hades, at least by that name.
Quote:12 - If God wants us all to follow and worship him, why didn't he create us as such? *Your expected answer will be addressed in the next question.
Free will, and...
My least favorite argument.
Quote:13 - What good is it for us to have free will if the intention is for us not to use it? Sure, we can use our free will, but we will burn in hell for eternity if we do. Russian roulette, anybody? It sounds like a set-up to me.
You may as well say "what good is free will if I don't get to murder?"
Or why don't we take it down a notch and say "What good is free will if we don't get to have premarital sex?"
Quote:14 - In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, why would God kill Lot's wife, Sarah, by turning her into a pillar of salt for simply looking in the wrong direction?
It wasn't as simple as her "looking in the wrong direction", she directly disobeyed God.
And god is an evil entity that will turn you into seasoning, if you dare look over your shoulder. I'd make a Hitler reference here, but it would be overkill.
Quote:18 - If God is omnipotent, why does he not just show himself to all of us, all at once, thereby ending this game of free will and temptation?
"Dear God, I would like to be a mindless automaton.
Dear god,
If you actually exist, do you think you could stop with the childish head games?
Sincerely,
Me
Quote:22 - Christians argue evolution by asking why there aren't any half-ape/half-men walking around today, right? Why don't we see giants, fiery talking serpents, talking donkeys and many other mythical creatures that are described in the Bible?
That's a tremendous generalization. Only creationists argue argue against evolution, that hardly equals all Christians. Also, not everyone is a Biblical literalist. Damn, this guy.
Point me to the part where he said all Christians. While you're at it, point me to a Christian that doesn't argue against evolution. I haven't seen one of them in a while.
Quote:23 - If we are to only have sex for the purpose of pro-creation, and to do so outside of the scope of pro-creation is sinful, then why would God create us with an over abundance of nerve endings in our reproductive organs making sex extremely pleasurable? It sounds like yet another set-up.
I can't speak for Christianity, but in Judaism sex is actually a mitzvah (translated something like "good-deed" or "commandment").
So, you can have sex whenever you want in Judaism?
Quote:28 - If God's word is supposed to be the accurate word of God himself, how are we supposed to trust it enough to model our lives after it 100% when hundreds of books were excluded from the original text throughout so many translations and revisions in history?
The Tanakh has existed in more or less in the same form for a very long time.
I'm sorry, what was your point?
Quote:29 - Why is there no evidence of any of the miracles performed by God? None whatsoever.
Free will. Also most miracles described in the Bible could have come about by natural means.
I laughed at the first part and agreed with the second.
Quote:31 - If you believe that your eternal life is more important than your physical life and you believe that all children are innocent in the eyes of God, why not kill your children so they are guaranteed to go to heaven? You can't tell me that it is because killing is a sin. First of all, you could repent thereafter and be forgiven. Secondly, if you would sacrifice your life for your child who is about to be hit by a train, and you believe your eternal life is more important than this life, then it would stand to reason that you should kill your children to ensure their entrance into heaven before they are old enough to be held accountable for being a creature of sin, right?
This is stupid. We're supposed to live this life as well as we can, why would we throw that away?
Why wouldn't we?
Quote:35 - Imagine that I had the power and ability to feed millions and end all suffering. Now, imagine that I simply chose not to do so because these millions of people that are suffering did not like me. You would probably like me even less then, right? Then why does God get a 'get out of jail free card' on that one? Wait a minute, 'God's plan,' right? Gotcha.
Unless this guy is an all-powerful being who exists outside of time, this analogy sucks ass.
No, it doesn't. god is supposed to be an all-powerful being who does exactly what this man outlined. I have always said that if there were a god, which is quite laughable, he would have to be the biggest dickhead ever.
Quote:36 - Why are more atrocities committed in the name of God than anything else?
Proof?
I'll give you that. But, if you start denying that a shitload of wars have been perpetrated by believers in the name of god, I'm just going to have to bow out of this discussion.
Quote:38 - Building upon the previous question, if it is almost impossible for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven, then why would God create heaven as having pearly gates, streets of gold and many mansions? It sounds like he wants us to be poor in life so that we will want to be rich in the afterlife, maybe? Is God using the sinful value of greed to attract humans to believe in him? Does that make any sense whatsoever?
What? This guy's making shit up and he knows it. No where in the Tanakh or "New Testament" is heaven ever described as such.
Tell me where he mentioned the Tanakh (sounds like a sneeze) or the New Testament.
Quote:42 - Seeing as though everything we, including Christians, enjoy in the modern world is a product of science, why do Christians so fervently deny factual scientific evidence that disproves so many aspects of the bible and their religion as a whole?
Once again this guy seems to assume Christian = extreme fundamentalist.
Actually, this is what he assumes about Christians. . .
Courts should be about law.
