Is the Holy Spirit lazy or ineffective?

[Godlesspanther]

I have come across some xtian believers who do claim that the age of miracles is long over and we are in the "age of the church" or some such nonsense. There are other excuses for why it is that we no longer have actual verifiable miraculous events, like "if god performed miracles then there would be no need for faith." Like there would be any need for faith if god DOESN'T perform miracles.

I have yet to hear even a lame excuse as to why there are so many different religions. Why doesn't the holy spirit give the same message to everyone throughout the world?

[themonkeyman]

This was one of the first things that troubled me, back when I believed. I used to feel lucky for being born in the country that worshiped the right god.

Nothing a bit of racist stereotyping can't cure.

To quote the rather wonderful jesus-is-saviour.com:

" What percentage of people do you believe are truly saved? If you say "ALL," then you are obviously NOT a believer. 1st John 2:22 teaches that anyone who denies Jesus Christ is a LIAR. That means all Islamic Muslims are liars, because they deny that Jesus is the Son of God. Muslims deny that Jesus ever died on a cross. There are an estimated 1,300,000,000 Muslims in the world.

All followers of Judaism are liars, because they deny that Jesus is the Messiah. That's what the Bible teaches in 1st John 2:22. It's Jesus or Hell.

The question is: Do you believe that the Bible is God's Word? I do. By the way, the King James Bible is the only reliable English Bible that hasn't been corrupted by Satan. "

I love the last line

'By the way the king james bible is the only reliable English Bible that hasn't been corrupted by Satan.'

Clearly someone has no idea how that Bible came about lol, If memory serves it took 3 revisions to get it right as the Original KJV was not what the King thought it should be!

I would prefer Greek Interlinear lol

---

I have come across some xtian believers who do claim that the age of miracles is long over and we are in the "age of the church" or some such nonsense. There are other excuses for why it is that we no longer have actual verifiable miraculous events, like "if god performed miracles then there would be no need for faith." Like there would be any need for faith if god DOESN'T perform miracles.

I have yet to hear even a lame excuse as to why there are so many different religions. Why doesn't the holy spirit give the same message to everyone throughout the world?

Perhaps our good friend and Critic Prophyry has a better explination.

15) "Furthermore, we know from Augustine (City of God) that Porphyry complained of the influx
of educated women into the church; in his Philosophy from Oracles, written around 263, he laments
(en masque as Apollo, the god of enlightenment) that it is almost impossible to win back anyone who
has converted to Christianity: it is easier, he says, to write words on water than try to use argument
on a Christian. They simply cannot understand the folly of worshipping as a god a man who had died
as a criminal." page 168

[DarkHorse]

It is neither lazy, nor ineffective. It doesn't exist.

And why is it that all the bad is from Satan? Man can't take responsibility for their own shit, so they had to go invent something that doesn't exist, in order to make themselves feel better. And idiots believe this stuff. I'm glad I'm not an idiot anymore.

[Jacob(smooth)]

A damn good argument. I was gonna try to play Devil's advocate...but I don't have much lol.

I'm your huckleberry .

Playing God's advocate, the HS is the "helper", it generally only appears to believers. God doesn't tend to crash into people's lives swat style, you have to ask him. Stands to reason that areas in which people don't ask him (because they have not heard the good news), won't hear him.

I know that raises as many difficult questions than it answers but that's the "stock" answer.

[RobbyPants]

Playing God's advocate, the HS is the "helper", it generally only appears to believers. God doesn't tend to crash into people's lives swat style, you have to ask him. Stands to reason that areas in which people don't ask him (because they have not heard the good news), won't hear him.

I know that raises as many difficult questions than it answers but that's the "stock" answer.

Maybe it's a result of me being raised Lutheran, but I was always taught that the Holy Spirit had to chose you, too. This might be why some people moved away from that.

Of course, it still doesn't answer my "uneven judgment" part about some being raised in Christian nations and others being raised in Muslim nations where apostasy is a capital offense. It's not like YHWH can expect people over there to start seeking him out on their own. They're already afraid of going to Muslim hell and of actual physical death if they deconvert; it's not like YHWH is bringing anything extra to the table for them.

[ThePinsir]

I know that raises as many difficult questions than it answers but that's the "stock" answer.

At least you admit that lol. I've had some christians tell me that.

Circular logic at its finest:

You have to pretend something is real before you actually become convinced that its real.

[Jacob(smooth)]

I know that raises as many difficult questions than it answers but that's the "stock" answer.

At least you admit that lol. I've had some christians tell me that.

Circular logic at its finest:

You have to pretend something is real before you actually become convinced that its real.

Yep. That's the loop. Cosy on the inside, inexplicable on the outside.

---

Playing God's advocate, the HS is the "helper", it generally only appears to believers. God doesn't tend to crash into people's lives swat style, you have to ask him. Stands to reason that areas in which people don't ask him (because they have not heard the good news), won't hear him.

I know that raises as many difficult questions than it answers but that's the "stock" answer.

Maybe it's a result of me being raised Lutheran, but I was always taught that the Holy Spirit had to chose you, too. This might be why some people moved away from that.

Of course, it still doesn't answer my "uneven judgment" part about some being raised in Christian nations and others being raised in Muslim nations where apostasy is a capital offense. It's not like YHWH can expect people over there to start seeking him out on their own. They're already afraid of going to Muslim hell and of actual physical death if they deconvert; it's not like YHWH is bringing anything extra to the table for them.

[apologetics]God is just. Everyone is given the opportunity to know him, either in this life of thereafter. God never promised it would be easy. Actually, Christianity thrives most when it is persecuted. People in first world "Christian" nations face other, spiritual challenges, the temptations of the world etc. [/apologetics]

That aside, for me it's the disparity in balls out undeniable miracles which grinds on me. God does all his PR with a desert tribe then spends the next 2000 years playing peekaboo.

[Silver]

I choose option three: the holy spirit does not exist.

[truthBtold]

I choose option three: the holy spirit does not exist.

Holy shit!! Does...

[ThomM]

Being raised as a good Lutheran, I was told that the only way you can accept God is through the Holy Spirit. He enables you to embrace God... because. It was never really explained to me why this matters.

One thing I can't help but notice is how certain regions seem to be more predisposed to have a certain religion. Sure, there will be people of different religions all over the place, and cultural hubs and large cities will have lots of diversity, but the region on average will be one religion. Now, we know this is mostly because it's how the people were raised and it's what their culture reinforces.

So, the Holy Spirit must be really lazy or otherwise ineffective, since it consistently has trouble overcoming predictable demographics. Does it just not spend as much time in northern Africa, the Middle East, and part of Asia as it does in Europe and the Americas? Why does it have such a hard time? Do those people have "hard hearts" or something? At the end of the day, it seems really unfair to judge a person raised in a Christian country the same as you'd judge someone who was raised from a child to believe that Allah is the one true god while living in a country where apostasy is a capital offense. How is that second person supposed to receive the message in any way that is compelling and not simply dismissed as "a trick from Iblis"?

Whatever it is, the Holy Spirit is having a demonstrably harder time overcoming upbringing and culture.


On a related note, if the Holy Spirit is necessary for this, why did Jesus and the disciples perform all those miracles? The Bible states more than once that they performed miracles so that people would believe:

John 4:48

48 So Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see [a]signs and wonders, you simply will not believe.

Mark 16:20

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

So, which is it? The Holy Spirit alone, or do we need signs and wonders to believe? If it's the former, why all the miracles? If it's the latter, why did all the miracles suddenly stop? The only "miracles" we see now are just random personal experiences people have that feel miraculous (surviving cancer or seeing their baby for the first time), which are... a far cry from walking on water and transmutation.

Sorry - you missed the third and most likely option - the Holy Ghost is a MYTH - and of that we can be sure is true

---

I have a question of the good Lutheran.

Have you ever read the bible?

If you have - then you certainly read several passages

1 - Give to Caesar what is Caesars - give to god what is god

2 - For a rich man to be saved he should give all his money TO THE POOR etc.


Nowhere in the New Testament does the christ get quoted for you to give money to a church - always to the poor.

The support for Tithing is in the Old Testament

So - why do you give money to the church - instead of giving it to the poor as the christ cleary stated? THe church is certainly not an efficient way to support poor people - since they keep most of the money - and that is not doing what your god said to do as well.