Christianity: Don't Reason, Just Obey

[Chad32]

The article you linked mentions she believes in the whole "free gift" idea. It's a weird concept. If something if free, it means you get it regardless of anything else. You don't need to change your life. You don't need to give anything in return. It's just yours. It's like if I showed up at your door, slipped $20 under it, and left. Maybe I'd say I'm giving away cash. Do what you want with this.

I'm not really sure why people think salvation is free, because if it was then everyone would get into heaven. You might say people need to accept it first. Well the bible says everyone already knows that god exists, so we're already aware of this gift. We all know it's there. Yet I'm pretty sure if a believer says salvation is a free gift, and the atheist says ok I accept it, and goes about his or her life doing exactly the same thing, the believer would have a problem with it.

Does the Bible teach that 'people need to accept it first?' Is belief a work of man, or a work of God? Is salvation a work of the will of man, or the will of God?

Personally my studies have led me to conclude that 'people don't need to accept it first.' But let's assume this is true for the sake of your argument. It's true that the Bible says everyone already knows that God exists and so are aware of the gift. However, that doesn't necessitate that a person accepts the gift.

In your analogy you say that 'an atheist says ok I accept it'. How can a person who doesn't have faith in God make a true profession of faith in God? It's a nonsensical statement. Bear in mind that salvation is by faith alone, ... and that without faith it is impossible to please God. But your statement does raise an important question: How do we get faith? Does faith come about by the will of man, or by the will of God?

Well you said it was free. If I'm expected to do anything different in return, it isn't a free gift.

It's important to define terms. 'Free' means that it is unmerited. We say that salvation is 'free' in that the saved person can do nothing to merit the salvation, so for them it is free.

To your statement, you have confused salvation with what comes after. Yes salvation is 'free' (unmerited), we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. We are saved by grace, that no man may boast. From there, the Bible teaches that we are saved (unmerited) unto good works. In other words, we are saved and then we are called to good works. The 'called to good works' is in part what theologians call sanctification. It is the process we are conformed to the image and likeness of Christ And it also is a working of God in us. So back to your original comment, the 'expected to do anything different in return' is in relation to sanctification and operates as a result of salvation, not in order for it. Consider, you give me that $20, I didn't merit the $20, that is salvation. I'm affected by your gesture and as a result I begin to live differently, that is sanctification. It's an incomplete analogy, but it is a start.

Yes it does teach that you need to accept it first. At least that's what I've always been told. Of course the bible is so confusing that people have been debating over it for 2000 years, to the point that there are splinter groups upon splinter groups of people who can't decide what it really teaches. If it's completely up to Yahweh, and he wants us all to get into hevaen, there's no reason for anyone to not get into heaven. In that case, it apparently does depend on people. Of course some responsibility does fall on Yahweh, which he's obviously lacking due to many people not getting into heaven because they simply don't believe he exists.

Salvation by faith alone, or salvation primarily by faith, is a pretty unjust system anyway. There's no concrete evidence to base faith upon, and people like Hitler are more likely to get into heaven than people of other or no religion that most people on earth would consider likable and helpful people.

[Cato]

Catholics are often taught not to read the bible, less they draw their own conclusion which the church forbids them to do.

Very odd for a bible church to do this though, cant have been that good at his job.

I'm not sure where you got this from, but you are simply wrong. Practicing Catholics are constantly in the Bible. I take it you've never been to mass where there are typically three readings. Typically there is one each from the OT, the epistles, and the gospel. I actually prefer this to the Bible hopscotch spewed by evangelicals. There are all sorts of parish sponsored Bible studies just like any other church. Another facet of Catholicism that lays waste to your assertion is catechism. Try your "Catholics don't read the Bible" theory on a kid going to CCD every week. Prepare to duck as you will likely get clubbed by a hefty paperback with 'The New American Bible' stamped on the front.

Even though the official Vatican position is that the Bible is the inerrant and inspired word of God, there is no doctrine that mandates the stories must be taken literally. Take the story of Jonah. Catholics believe that the story is the inspired word of God, but don't have to believe that a fish actually swallowed Jonah; they can if they like. It's a story meant to convey a lesson and does not mean the events actually happened as described.

[Ksa]

Does the Bible teach that 'people need to accept it first?' Is belief a work of man, or a work of God? Is salvation a work of the will of man, or the will of God?

What odd questions. Man, obviously.

Exactly. First you get admission into the school, and then, you start studying for the subjects. Imagine someone who studies engineering, but he's not admitted into the engineering program. Can he graduate or "be saved"? Naturally no.

First you accept the Bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ our Lord, and then you study his word. That's what Christianity is about. Blind acceptance.

[ronedee]

I wish the church were a corpse, Ronny. But there are too many shitheads who still "believe" for that to happen. You know the type. But you are dying off. And that is a good thing.

Keep wishing! You'll never see Christianity die off. NEVER!

Because you have nothing to offer! NOTHING! Just vile, putrid waste products.

"Every knee will bend.... and every tongue will confess Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father."

[The Grand Nudger]

"Every knee will bend.... and every tongue will confess Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father."

Lol, a tyrants wet dream made real on paper. I can imagine the author frothing at the mouth (and other things too ).

Let me ask you this, do your eyes widen up a little bit when you read that passage? Say it out loud..does it make you smile?

[ronedee]

"Every knee will bend.... and every tongue will confess Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father."

Lol, a tyrants wet dream made real on paper. I can imagine the author frothing at the mouth (and other things too ).

Let me ask you this, do your eyes widen up a little bit when you read that passage? Say it out loud..does it make you smile?

I guess you are talking to me?

So, what do you have to offer in return? I'll wait....

[Rampant.A.I.]

I wish the church were a corpse, Ronny. But there are too many shitheads who still "believe" for that to happen. You know the type. But you are dying off. And that is a good thing.

Keep wishing! You'll never see Christianity die off. NEVER!

Because you have nothing to offer! NOTHING! Just vile, putrid waste products.

"Every knee will bend.... and every tongue will confess Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father."

[The Grand Nudger]

So, what do you have to offer in return? I'll wait....

Did I wake up and find myself at a cookie swap?

:looks around suspiciously:

(It does widen your eyes and make you smile..lol, doesn't it! I knew it!.......me too)

[JesusHChrist]

I wish the church were a corpse, Ronny. But there are too many shitheads who still "believe" for that to happen. You know the type. But you are dying off. And that is a good thing.

Keep wishing! You'll never see Christianity die off. NEVER!

Because you have nothing to offer! NOTHING! Just vile, putrid waste products.

"Every knee will bend.... and every tongue will confess Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father."

No, it won't die off, much the same way as paganism hasn't died off.

What we will see (and are seeing) is continuing marginalization of religious belief, at least in first world countries. As the older, believing generation dies off, they will not be replaced by the younger folks. The stats don't lie, the pews are emptying, the clerical ranks not being refilled. The internet is a bitch!

Christianity is a slowly rotting corpse with only a few maggots left to feed on the tiny bit of sustenance remaining. Yuck.

Now, get down and give me FIFTY maggot!

[Tonus]

"Every knee will bend.... and every tongue will confess Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father."

Translation: he's gonna make us an offer we can't refuse.