A Serious Question For Theists

[Bad Writer]

Don't hold your breath.

[Welsh cake]

Sounds to me like that's exactly the point Lek was making...

You're missing the point as well.

He's saying because we don't believe the threat is real, means we shouldn't be concerned, nor pay any attention to it.

However, this does NOT excuse the fact, that a hostile threat is STILL a hostile threat. The source or the context of the malicious statement is IRRELEVANT. No one should ever have to resort to something as low and petty as intimidation just to get a message across or be subjected to it either.

Bottom line: Don't threaten others.

[Bob Kelso]

I though Christians held themselves to a "better" standard.

We do.

Says the guy who would sacrifice his offspring if his god asked real nicely.

[Whateverist]

Sounds to me like that's exactly the point Lek was making...

You're missing the point as well.

He's saying because we don't believe the threat is real, means we shouldn't be concerned, nor pay any attention to it.

However, this does NOT excuse the fact, that a hostile threat is STILL a hostile threat. The source or the context of the malicious statement is IRRELEVANT. No one should ever have to resort to something as low and petty as intimidation just to get a message across or be subjected to it either.

Bottom line: Don't threaten others.

I hear what you're saying. But at least I can imagine they truly do think the threat is real. For me it isn't the threat that rubs me the wrong way as much as the condescension.

I'm actually willing to give theists a lot of respect for being another human being on the planet the same as me with an equal right to say what they think is going on and what is important. But when they get all smug about all the answers they have .. that's when they get my other side.

[Bob Kelso]

I hear what you're saying. But at least I can imagine they truly do think the threat is real. For me it isn't the threat that rubs me the wrong way as much as the condescension.

I'm actually willing to give theists a lot of respect for being another human being on the planet the same as me with an equal right to say what they think is going on and what is important. But when they get all smug about all the answers they have .. that's when they get my other side.

Too bad this is what we deal with the grand majority of the time here.

[Mystical]

:giggles:

I felt kind of sacreligious watching that in this Saint Francis hospital room. There's a crucifix on my door, they do speaker prayers several times a day, and right outside my window there's a little Catholic church that the hospital was built around.
Thanks

[fr0d0]

My statement was specifically in reference to a conversation that I had with Drich about the A/S/K nonsense. His claim is directly from the bible: "Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and you shall be answered". When I told him that I had indeed done all of those things under the mentoring and instruction of my pastor, he shifted the goalposts and asked (paraphrasing) "did you stop sinning?", and insinuated that I did not ask, seek, or knock correctly - as if there are unambiguous instructions on how these things are accomplished.

That, in my experience, is typical. If you asked, and did not receive, you weren't asking correctly. If you sought, and did not find, it is your manner of seeking that is at fault. If you knock... well, you get the idea.

I ask again: How in the holy fuck would you know whether one does it correctly? The instructions are clear, the specifics are ambiguous. How can anyone a) see into my heart to know it's state, and b) know whether or not A/S/K was done correctly, when they cannot explain themselves how it is to be done?

Do explain. You'll be the first to do in my experience so if you can succeed at it.

I think that's a thread on its own. I think you could find other 'simple' instructions that can be hard to accomplish. What we're talking about here is being open to the possibility. How do you make yourself open? Depending on your frame of mind, that might be impossible right now, or very possible. No matter how much you want it, you're not going to get it if you don't really want to.

And that applies to many things. Am I truly open to the possibility that atheism is true? If I'm honest... my personal bias is currently theism. I make an intellectual effort to level the balance when I become aware.

What the bible is doing with the a/s/k perquisite is establishing an open mind as a necessity.

[Jackalope]

I think that's a thread on its own. I think you could find other 'simple' instructions that can be hard to accomplish. What we're talking about here is being open to the possibility. How do you make yourself open? Depending on your frame of mind, that might be impossible right now, or very possible. No matter how much you want it, you're not going to get it if you don't really want to.

How would you know that I wasn't? I went to Christianity on my own as a young not-quite-adult, sought it out - over the concerns of my mother (my guardian at the time).

What the bible is doing with the a/s/k perquisite is establishing an open mind as a necessity.

Did that. I could not in good conscience identify as an ex-Christian if I did not earnestly have belief and faith at the time.

The subtle point that I was making is this: The criteria for "doing it right" appears to be success (where at the time, I would define as "being filled with the holy spirit", which is what everyone told me would happen). An observer can't tell if it happens, nor can they tell another how it's done, but somehow, they know that it was my efforts that led to an inability to feel the holy spirit.

In the end, it all smacked of self-delusion and wish-thinking.

[fr0d0]

There are tests that Christians use to establish the truth of a claim. Those are still not foolproof. You could have a lifelong confirmed Christian who is pulling the wool over everyones eyes, maybe even fooling themselves. I think the wisest thing anyone can say is that it is between the individual and God. I might judge you on what you say and do but what gives me the right to make that judgement? Nothing does.

[Jackalope]

I think the wisest thing anyone can say is that it is between the individual and God.

I don't disagree. Until he makes his presence known to me, I'll stick to my agnostic position. My criticism is aimed at those who claim to have an understanding of the ineffable. You've never struck me as that sort of Christian.