God's self esteem and the human free will : NO FORCED CONVERSION WITH THE SWORD

[Chad32]

Battered Wife Syndrome. It's not their god's fault for hitting them. It's their fault for giving him reason to hit them.

[paulpablo]

But you ignored this :


God will reward even atheists for their good deeds?

it's written down in the quran that the punishment for not believing the verses of the quran is god roasting that person til the flesh burns away then recreating their flesh for them to feel the pain over again.

it doesn't say in the quran it might happen, or god might have mercy, it says god will drive them into the flames and roast them.
So how is he going to have mercy on them or repay them for the good they did while at the same time as roasting them repeatedly?

I didn't ignore the verses you posted they just bare no relevance on anything I posted at all, if they do you, still haven't pointed out why they do.

There is verses that promise all those who do good paradise like the verse in my signature. How can this contradiction be reconciled? Perhaps by saying the verses condemning disbelievers in hell were specific to a group of disbelievers with certain traits at that time, like knowing the truth, oppressing believers, being at war with the Prophet and having seen miracles.

This is what totally fucks my mind over, you find a contradiction in the quran and rather than your mind thinking
"I have found a contradiction in the quran"
It thinks
"How can I reconcile this contradiction"

So god actually says in the quran. Those who disbelieve our verses will be roasted, so what god MUST mean is actually that not all disbelievers will be roasted through, just the bad ones.

The quran can't mean what it actually has printed in black and white in the quran, because if it did mean exactly what it says then it would be wrong, so it must mean something other than what it blatantly says.

This is the same as the verse in the quran where god says he does not forgive the sin of shirk.
Yet mostly every single muslim I've spoke to think that this means god DOES forgive shirk in certain circumstances for example if a person repents before death!

Only in magical book of the quran can make "DOES NOT" mean "DOES" the book where you can be shown gods loving mercy while at the same time as he's roasting your flesh through then creating new flesh for you to continually feel the pain of the roasting.

[WinterHold]

Apologies in advance, but, you're full of convoluted dogmatic shit, you know that?
You assert god is "the" pillar of self-sufficiency. Perfection. Needs or wants nothing from us, then follow up that claim, with the big ol' stinky turd assertion that "god requires worship".

No. No one requires worship or devotion.

You know that sky tyrant needs angels constantly singing his praises in heaven right? If that isn't insecurity and an inferiority-superiority-complex, then I don't know what is.

It's how you look at these prayers & chantings & worship. You see them as a humiliating process while I see it as true acknowledgement.

You live in god's universe, and it's a fun place. People do wanna live, they don't want to just die ; everybody enjoys life one way or another.

Now, worshiping god is mainly aimed at breaking your ego into peaces so you don't burn others. Neither by words or by even emotions or physical actions.
Worshiping god makes you respect the universe and everything that dwells within it.

It's also a true acknowledgment that god is amazing in every aspect for creating this universe. He deserves to be chanted for like that, without him saying a word in the first place. God created this universe ; the universe is amazing enough for us to worship god.
What I mean is : when I see a cherry tree blossoming in read I would totally chant for it's original creator who made it out of nothing. If I didn't, then I didn't measure things right, then I know nothing about being "thankful".

That's where the phrase "Kafer" came from : )

Hey, where you got people, you got problems. Evil is a naturalistic consequence. Something an all-powerful deity who created reality should be able to appreciate and not get angry over. Its unavoidable.

And if he is still angry, its because all blame and credit for creating a reality where evil is possible comes back to him.

Humans have needs, they are somehow weak. The evil you see is triggered by Satan, he used the human weakness ; it's not naturalistic.

That's why in the after life everybody's eyes would be opened to the fact mentioned in this verse :

( 22 ) And Satan will say when the matter has been concluded, "Indeed, Allah had promised you the promise of truth. And I promised you, but I betrayed you. But I had no authority over you except that I invited you, and you responded to me. So do not blame me; but blame yourselves. I cannot be called to your aid, nor can you be called to my aid. Indeed, I deny your association of me [with Allah] before. Indeed, for the wrongdoers is a painful punishment." Page 258, Quran.

So it's not mainly a human evil self rather than Satan calling out humanity to do all kind of evil things.

Satan knows it better than us. There was satan's evil message & god's good message. It's up to your brain to choose which one to follow & build upon.
This is how I see good and evil.

What would god appreciate ? a group of brainwashed fellas following a racist figure who wants to see them burn in hell ? asking them to bite the hand that fed them and created them ?
asking them to bite their fellow humans, wage wars upon one another ?
That's satan party, sorry bro but how would god appreciate such thing ?

pocaracas

He knows that people will probably judge prophets as mad.

( 7 ) And they say, "What is this messenger that eats food and walks in the markets? Why was there not sent down to him an angel so he would be with him a warner?
( 8 ) Or [why is not] a treasure presented to him [from heaven], or does he [not] have a garden from which he eats?" And the wrongdoers say, "You follow not but a man affected by magic." Page 360, Quran.

The whole deal is that I mentioned before : life is a test. Is what you have mentioned, pocaracas, derived from logical thinking or from inner ego ? I say it's your ego.

Just like the Church when it burned people who said earth is round. It's the inner human ego that says "who are these worthless scum to come tell us what to do or believe in ? they're human just like us ! LIARS ! ".

( 24 ) And said, "Is it one human being among us that we should follow? Indeed, we would then be in error and madness.
( 25 ) Has the message been sent down upon him from among us? Rather, he is an insolent liar." Page 529, the Quran.

About the geographical locations, Islam was always meant to be an international message ; to all humans.

Even the extremists of extremists believe that if somebody didn't read about islam or got the message in the wrong fashion, god will judge him, nobody can say either he/she would go to hell !

God is fair. He's not like our governments & human judges.

Ryantology



paulpablo

The verses simply mean : roasting in hell is not just for "not believing in god".
If you do good deeds, then you do believe in some parts of Islam, then you do walk the path of god partially.

You don't understand that the punishment of hell is assured mainly for the baddest of bad, notice that even "believers" go to hell -i.e Satan-.

And then, what are these verses you speak about ? these roasting verses are for the evil ones -who also contain believers in god who committed atrocities-, but I see this verse shining :

( 117 ) And whoever invokes besides Allah another deity for which he has no proof - then his account is only with his Lord. Indeed, the disbelievers will not succeed. Page 349, the Quran.

and yet, the main point of my topic still stands : with time, your non believing in god will lead you astray from any good deed you've done. But Hell & heaven ; that's god judgement not mine.

Self esteem is a concept used in the study of human psychology also and yet you're applying that to a god.

The rest of what you wrote simply can't be proven, you don't know that god can't have a false sense of superiority , someone who creates people and then tells them their lives must be dedicated to praising him, then writes a book detailing how amazing he is, then tells people if they don't believe the book he will burn them repeatedly seems to be a little arrogant to me, just a little.

You sure you read the quran ? it's not always about god
besides, let's change self esteem to "god's independence from needs".

If people don't believe in the book, then they don't believe in the right path. Then they will burn their own world with atomic weapons and world wars..

Rhythm

If you mean the hellish punishment, yeah it's god's business not mine. All I can say is that non believing in Islam will put you right on the track of hell.

For the hell you have caused to others.

You know, build your world not on the humility of worshiping one god which we are all equal under him, but to worship your country and create an interest driven political system, that doesn't care about nothing but economy even if the price was causing poverty & civil wars to other countries.

And whoever disobeys, will burn in earthly inferno, human made, rained by jet fighters & heavy bombers.

Apologies in advance, but, you're full of convoluted dogmatic shit, you know that?
You assert god is "the" pillar of self-sufficiency. Perfection. Needs or wants nothing from us, then follow up that claim, with the big ol' stinky turd assertion that "god requires worship".

No. No one requires worship or devotion.

You know that sky tyrant needs angels constantly singing his praises in heaven right? If that isn't insecurity and an inferiority-superiority-complex, then I don't know what is.

It's how you look at these prayers & chantings & worship. You see them as a humiliating process while I see it as true acknowledgement.

You live in god's universe, and it's a fun place. People do wanna live, they don't want to just die ; everybody enjoys life one way or another.

Now, worshiping god is mainly aimed at breaking your ego into peaces so you don't burn others. Neither by words or by even emotions or physical actions.
Worshiping god makes you respect the universe and everything that dwells within it.

It's also a true acknowledgment that god is amazing in every aspect for creating this universe. He deserves to be chanted for like that, without him saying a word in the first place. God created this universe ; the universe is amazing enough for us to worship god.
What I mean is : when I see a cherry tree blossoming in read I would totally chant for it's original creator who made it out of nothing. If I didn't, then I didn't measure things right, then I know nothing about being "thankful".

That's where the phrase "Kafer" came from : )

Hey, where you got people, you got problems. Evil is a naturalistic consequence. Something an all-powerful deity who created reality should be able to appreciate and not get angry over. Its unavoidable.

And if he is still angry, its because all blame and credit for creating a reality where evil is possible comes back to him.

Humans have needs, they are somehow weak. The evil you see is triggered by Satan, he used the human weakness ; it's not naturalistic.

That's why in the after life everybody's eyes would be opened to the fact mentioned in this verse :

( 22 ) And Satan will say when the matter has been concluded, "Indeed, Allah had promised you the promise of truth. And I promised you, but I betrayed you. But I had no authority over you except that I invited you, and you responded to me. So do not blame me; but blame yourselves. I cannot be called to your aid, nor can you be called to my aid. Indeed, I deny your association of me [with Allah] before. Indeed, for the wrongdoers is a painful punishment." Page 258, Quran.

So it's not mainly a human evil self rather than Satan calling out humanity to do all kind of evil things.

Satan knows it better than us. There was satan's evil message & god's good message. It's up to your brain to choose which one to follow & build upon.
This is how I see good and evil.

What would god appreciate ? a group of brainwashed fellas following a racist figure who wants to see them burn in hell ? asking them to bite the hand that fed them and created them ?
asking them to bite their fellow humans, wage wars upon one another ?
That's satan party, sorry bro but how would god appreciate such thing ?

pocaracas

He knows that people will probably judge prophets as mad.

( 7 ) And they say, "What is this messenger that eats food and walks in the markets? Why was there not sent down to him an angel so he would be with him a warner?
( 8 ) Or [why is not] a treasure presented to him [from heaven], or does he [not] have a garden from which he eats?" And the wrongdoers say, "You follow not but a man affected by magic." Page 360, Quran.

The whole deal is that I mentioned before : life is a test. Is what you have mentioned, pocaracas, derived from logical thinking or from inner ego ? I say it's your ego.

Just like the Church when it burned people who said earth is round. It's the inner human ego that says "who are these worthless scum to come tell us what to do or believe in ? they're human just like us ! LIARS ! ".

( 24 ) And said, "Is it one human being among us that we should follow? Indeed, we would then be in error and madness.
( 25 ) Has the message been sent down upon him from among us? Rather, he is an insolent liar." Page 529, the Quran.

About the geographical locations, Islam was always meant to be an international message ; to all humans.

Even the extremists of extremists believe that if somebody didn't read about islam or got the message in the wrong fashion, god will judge him, nobody can say either he/she would go to hell !

God is fair. He's not like our governments & human judges.

Ryantology

Dude please elaborate :/

paulpablo

The verses simply mean : roasting in hell is not just for "not believing in god".
If you do good deeds, then you do believe in some parts of Islam, then you do walk the path of god partially.

You don't understand that the punishment of hell is assured mainly for the baddest of bad, notice that even "believers" go to hell -i.e Satan-.

And then, what are these verses you speak about ? these roasting verses are for the evil ones -who also contain believers in god who committed atrocities-, but I see this verse shining :

( 117 ) And whoever invokes besides Allah another deity for which he has no proof - then his account is only with his Lord. Indeed, the disbelievers will not succeed. Page 349, the Quran.

and yet, the main point of my topic still stands : with time, your non believing in god will lead you astray from any good deed you've done. But Hell & heaven ; that's god judgement not mine.

Self esteem is a concept used in the study of human psychology also and yet you're applying that to a god.

The rest of what you wrote simply can't be proven, you don't know that god can't have a false sense of superiority , someone who creates people and then tells them their lives must be dedicated to praising him, then writes a book detailing how amazing he is, then tells people if they don't believe the book he will burn them repeatedly seems to be a little arrogant to me, just a little.

You sure you read the quran ? it's not always about god
besides, let's change self esteem to "god's independence from needs".

If people don't believe in the book, then they don't believe in the right path. Then they will burn their own world with atomic weapons and world wars..

Rhythm

If you mean the hellish punishment, yeah it's god's business not mine. All I can say is that non believing in Islam will put you right on the track of hell.

For the hell you have caused to others.

You know, build your world not on the humility of worshiping one god which we are all equal under him, but to worship your country and create an interest driven political system, that doesn't care about nothing but economy even if the price was causing poverty & civil wars to other countries.

And whoever disobeys, will burn in earthly inferno, human made, rained by jet fighters & heavy bombers.

MysticKnight


Couldn't agree more, mysticKnight, the verse you have posted is a bigger evidence that god is just, and that he'll repay those who did good no matter who they are.
Thank you very much for revealing that verse.

Losty

Because of the blessing of free will.

Rhythm

Armageddon is something totally different than "apocalypse". Apocalypse is coming, and the day earth ends is indeed coming, but it will mainly be caused because of the sins of humans.
Armageddon on the other hand is a trigger we humans have our fingers one -Superpowers and their "atomic submarines & missiles"-.

I always thought apocalypse would come after "a huge sin" is committed. Like a nuclear holocaust.

Chad32

It's not gangs of new york.
Cause pain to others and you will get punished ; plain and simple.
Unless you justify that ?

paulpablo

MysticKnight might have a better response. But mine is the following :

First of all, until the day you die, nobody can judge you. So, you misunderstood the verse of "shirk" ; it speaks about meeting god in judgement day as a "heathen", who knew Islam & kept living on as a heathen and died as a heathen.. No contradictions here.

Then, I already mentioned in this same comment that hell isn't just for "non believers", the quran is straight about that and satan's story is the biggest example ! HE BELIEVES IN GOD ! but that didn't do him any good you see.

So, if you thought the matter is only about believe, then you're no difference than ISIS and Al-Qaeda, who thought that saying "allahu akbar !" will free them from the sins of chopping the heads of hundreds.

Islam is faith followed by work, not just faith.

Your faith is worthless without good deeds.

And those good deeds paulpablo, are mainly aimed towards fellow humans, with only a small fraction aimed at god.

we pray 5 times a day, I personally pray alone, the prayer doesn't last more than 5 minutes or so and that's it..

While on the other hand, i have to stay away from negative thinking 24/7, I have to reject any idea including the abuse of others, and many many many other "islamic orders" that are aimed at society and humans, NOT GOD !

I don't see any contradictions.. All I can see is two types of people in hell:

1) Those who didn't believe and did all the wrong stuff in the world.
2) Those who believed and also did all the wrong stuff in the world.

A merciful god that will forgive your sins at any point while you're alive.
But he's also a just judge that will not accept anymore from you after your hour has came.

[pocaracas]

pocaracas

He knows that people will probably judge prophets as mad.

( 7 ) And they say, "What is this messenger that eats food and walks in the markets? Why was there not sent down to him an angel so he would be with him a warner?
( 8 ) Or [why is not] a treasure presented to him [from heaven], or does he [not] have a garden from which he eats?" And the wrongdoers say, "You follow not but a man affected by magic." Page 360, Quran.

And what comes after? The fact that people could tell this back then only comes to show that people weren't all as dumb as we, today, like to paint them...
When you look at it properly, all the classical greek and roman authors and philosophers were quite smart.

Anyway, what comes after? What's the reasoned argument that defeats this objection, according to the book?

The whole deal is that I mentioned before : life is a test. Is what you have mentioned, pocaracas, derived from logical thinking or from inner ego ? I say it's your ego.

You say wrong.
Logical thinking is independent of ego.

Just like the Church when it burned people who said earth is round. It's the inner human ego that says "who are these worthless scum to come tell us what to do or believe in ? they're human just like us ! LIARS ! ".

False analogy... or maybe you prefer "Strawman".

( 24 ) And said, "Is it one human being among us that we should follow? Indeed, we would then be in error and madness.
( 25 ) Has the message been sent down upon him from among us? Rather, he is an insolent liar." Page 529, the Quran.

Still, acknowledgement of the problem does not mean it's solved.

About the geographical locations, Islam was always meant to be an international message ; to all humans.

No it wasn't.
It was meant to the people in or around the arabian peninsula.

Also, why make it arab? A language which is extremely difficult to translate to any other keeping the meaning (and multiple meanings) intact?

Why not make things the proper and right way?

Even the extremists of extremists believe that if somebody didn't read about islam or got the message in the wrong fashion, god will judge him, nobody can say either he/she would go to hell !

It's the same thing for every abrahamic religion, you know?... Kind of like they were all made up around the same story, but then each put in a few local details. Just enough to set it apart... just enough to justify invading the opponent's territory... just enough for WAR!

God is fair. He's not like our governments & human judges.

And how, pray tell, do you know that?
First, that "god is".
Second, that "god is fair".

The government thing... well... they do attempt to apply justice, but the maxim of "innocent until proven guilty" does allow some actual wrongdoers from sustaining their just penalty. As all human systems, it is an imperfect system, one that attempts to minimize the injustice.

[Angrboda]

"What a bunch of hooey."

[paulpablo]

First of all, until the day you die, nobody can judge you. So, you misunderstood the verse of "shirk" ; it speaks about meeting god in judgement day as a "heathen", who knew Islam & kept living on as a heathen and died as a heathen.. No contradictions here.

Ahhhhhhhh ok, I see. So you're telling me god DOES forgive heathens as long as they don't die as heathens. You believe god DOES forgive association with him as long as a person doesn't do it all their life and repents.

Let's see what the quran says.

Just to clarify you have just said God DOES FORGIVE association with him if a person repents and converts to Islam, and there will be no contradiction with that and what the quran says.

Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin.

And again in a separate verse

Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly gone far astray.

---

The verses simply mean : roasting in hell is not just for "not believing in god".
If you do good deeds, then you do believe in some parts of Islam, then you do walk the path of god partially.

No because good deeds aren't synonymous with believing in the verses of the quran.
Just because the quran mentions some good deeds doesn't mean the quran invented these good deeds and if you do them you're believing in the verses of the quran.

You say god doesn't punish people just for not believing in god?

And those who disbelieve and deny Our signs - those will be companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally."

Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

[Welsh cake]

It's how you look at these prayers & chantings & worship. You see them as a humiliating process while I see it as true acknowledgement.

Acknowledgement indeed? You want to degrade yourself five times a day? I'm tempted to say, knock yourself out, except there's a lot of Muslim workers where I am who annoyingly all run off for prayers constantly, leaving me to do all the work. Its just an excuse for laziness if you ask me. >:C

You live in god's universe, and it's a fun place. People do wanna live, they don't want to just die ; everybody enjoys life one way or another.

If I believed in god, which I don't, I would have to point out you're making huge generalizations.

There are many days where I hate the universe, life, and often despair and long for eternal death. I'm not alone. I guess your life is too peachy perfect to ever hope to understand.

[WinterHold]

And what comes after? The fact that people could tell this back then only comes to show that people weren't all as dumb as we, today, like to paint them...
When you look at it properly, all the classical greek and roman authors and philosophers were quite smart.

Anyway, what comes after? What's the reasoned argument that defeats this objection, according to the book?

They weren't TBH. I always believed humans were pretty smart since day 1 -hence no monkey to man stuff-.
They used to think & analyze pretty much like us, that's why a Quran read 1400 years ago has a similar effect on the modern brain as the ancient brain.

The reason behind sending prophets as humans is simply to disproof Satan's false claims about how sinful & filthy humans are. The story of Satan is something I posted here a lot, so I won't post it again, you'll find it in many verses in the Quran.

With every prophet sent, god shows to satan how strong humans can get with god's support, how faithful they can get with god's support, without even seeing angels or god. Some humans would instantly believe, just by following logic & heart.

It also serves another purpose, which is the hammer of god hitting the ego nerve of people. ya know, when people think they know it all, that they also believe they have the right to make fun & kill those who oppose them.

It's always the condition, mate. God sends a man prophet, a lot of people start making fun of him & turn his life into a living hell, just because deep inside they thought they know it all. So god deceived them, to let the darkness of their hearts shine, with that prophet the center of attention.

History marked that Rome tortured Christians & threw them to lions in the arena, marked that Mohammed peace be upon him & his followers saw hell in Mecca at the hands of the heathens, marked that Jews saw hell under the hands of the Pharaoh.

It mainly serves these two purposes.

You say wrong.
Logical thinking is independent of ego.

Science proved that the brain operates in patterns. Experience built upon experience ; resulting a unique pattern. So, if ego penetrated that pattern, believe me even your logic will be built upon ego, at least to some extent.

That's what I believe in.

False analogy... or maybe you prefer "Strawman".

mmmmmm...

No it wasn't.
It was meant to the people in or around the arabian peninsula.

Also, why make it arab? A language which is extremely difficult to translate to any other keeping the meaning (and multiple meanings) intact?

Why not make things the proper and right way?

The Quran itself says it's universal !

( 28 ) And We have not sent you except comprehensively to mankind as a bringer of good tidings and a warner. But most of the people do not know. Page 431, Quran.

Don't you think your argument proves that Islam is the right religion ? or at least point at that direction ?
Because, despite the language you say is "hard", Islam did spread to cover the whole globe & today Muslims are a billion..

So if Arabic wasn't convenient islam would've vanished wouldn't it ?

Then, I'm a native arab who never left the middle east -yes sir-, I learned English by myself without teachers or courses & fluent in the language, I don't see any meanings being lost in the translation !

Not even a single meaning !!
All the verses I copied to you perfectly match the arabic ones meaning wise, not a single word is dropped in the middle.

Islam is for everybody. Don't allow a crazy Arab to convince you it's for arabs only and that "Arabic is the language of Islam". Islam is the language of god. Arabic is a human language that Islam was "described with it".

It can also be described in English & any other language.

[/quote]


I'm not a Catholic, Pocaracas. I didn't say "he wouldn't go to hell".
I said " god will judge him, nobody can say either he/she would go to hell".

God will judge. It's non of my business. So I better warn before god judges that poor eskimo guy.

It's the same thing for every abrahamic religion, you know?... Kind of like they were all made up around the same story, but then each put in a few local details. Just enough to set it apart... just enough to justify invading the opponent's territory... just enough for WAR!

Again, that similarity is another good sign that Islam is true, and that Abraham along with all the other dear prophets practiced this faith & preached it at different locations.

War ? All I know is that people took those peaceful religions, started to twist it to fit their needs, then waged war under its name ; falsely .

Starting with Christian rome, to Ummayad traitor Mo'aweya ibn abu Sufyan.

And how, pray tell, do you know that?
First, that "god is".
Second, that "god is fair".

Honestly I didn't understand what you mean. Please elaborate.

The government thing... well... they do attempt to apply justice, but the maxim of "innocent until proven guilty" does allow some actual wrongdoers from sustaining their just penalty. As all human systems, it is an imperfect system, one that attempts to minimize the injustice.

I don't believe that.
Millions around the world don't believe that -including non muslims-.

Foreign policies of world governments disprove every single word you said about them seeking to limit "injustice".

When america & israel invade, all eyes are blind.
But when Russia does it all eyes are opened.

Other examples are too many to post.. out of context too.

rasetsu

ha ha ha ><

paulpablo

And the verses you brought actually speak about meeting god as a heathen..

Say somebody had stole a property. God might forgive him in judgement day even though he met him as a thieve. He won't if the person met him a heathen.

On earth, repent, and god will forgive you. Verse :

( 11 ) But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know. Page 188, Quran.

Read this whole page ; the verse was especially aimed at "heathens" !

Differentiate between life on earth & the after life !
Differentiate that after death there's nothing you can do to fix what you have done in your life.

As long as you're alive, you have a chance to follow god's path.

No because good deeds aren't synonymous with believing in the verses of the quran.
Just because the quran mentions some good deeds doesn't mean the quran invented these good deeds and if you do them you're believing in the verses of the quran.

You say god doesn't punish people just for not believing in god?

Yes. God invented them & showed them to humans since the day of Adam & Eve.

Disbelief would lead them to do bad stuff that would earn them hell.
Disbelief would lead them to deny the good deeds, or do it at times & forget about them in other times ; unlike a true believer who does them all the time.

Eventually ; their disbelief would earn them hellfire.
Yet, only god judges. It's not me who judges.

I just warn with the Quran. You believe whatever you wanna believe.

Welsh cake

You remind me of a friend in college, who got so late on a lecture, the professor was an old fashioned older gal who hated the guts of delay & literally used to withdraw the course for students who are absent for only 3 lectures !!!

The guy came late, he told her "sorry I was praying !", two seconds we heard the mosque calling for the prayer xD it wasn't even the time of prayer when he was absent I think he was in the cafeteria devouring on sandwiches..The professor laughed though & didn't count him as absent xD

But I do it, it's the best thing I ever done in my life. So peaceful and makes me feel so close to god. I don't do it to run away from work TBH, I usually pick up a time where nobody sees me and do it alone, concentrating on the fact that I'm literally praying for the one & only god.

If I believed in god, which I don't, I would have to point out you're making huge generalizations.

There are many days where I hate the universe, life, and often despair and long for eternal death. I'm not alone. I guess your life is too peachy perfect to ever hope to understand.

Don't misunderstand me. Earthly life is sure grim, gloomy and full of sadness. I know that because I myself is not a happy person by myself ; Islam makes me happy and hopeful.

But the concept of life, the good taste of food, the company of somebody whom you love & loved by, a good laugh over a joke, the wonders of outer space, the scene of the cherry blossom.

stuff make you wonder : what if we lived on another place, which has all these blessings yet without the gloomy aspects ?
a place without rejection, hatred, war..a place of love & peace that would go forever ?

That's why I believe in God and life after death. There is a place that is better than this and I totally believe in it.
Atheists call me delusional & living in denial. But no. This life has enough signs that a creator is there and that it's all nothing more than a test.

[paulpablo]

And the verses you brought actually speak about meeting god as a heathen..

Say somebody had stole a property. God might forgive him in judgement day even though he met him as a thieve. He won't if the person met him a heathen.

On earth, repent, and god will forgive you. Verse :

( 11 ) But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know. Page 188, Quran.

Read this whole page ; the verse was especially aimed at "heathens" !

Differentiate between life on earth & the after life !
Differentiate that after death there's nothing you can do to fix what you have done in your life.

As long as you're alive, you have a chance to follow god's path.

Ok I understand what you're saying isn't actually mentioned in the quran.
It doesn't say "And when I was talking about not forgiving shirk I just meant when that person meets me as a heathen and I didn't mean simply that I don't just never forgive it"

Unless there is a verse like that which I haven't seen?


If there is no verse like that then you're basically just making up your own story to cover up the contradiction.

[pocaracas]

And what comes after? The fact that people could tell this back then only comes to show that people weren't all as dumb as we, today, like to paint them...
When you look at it properly, all the classical greek and roman authors and philosophers were quite smart.

Anyway, what comes after? What's the reasoned argument that defeats this objection, according to the book?

They weren't TBH. I always believed humans were pretty smart since day 1 -hence no monkey to man stuff-.
They used to think & analyze pretty much like us, that's why a Quran read 1400 years ago has a similar effect on the modern brain as the ancient brain.

Reality doesn't care what you believe in.
It just is.
And yes, people back then were as smart as we are today... they just didn't have access to the same amount of accumulated human knowledge.

The reason behind sending prophets as humans is simply to disproof Satan's false claims about how sinful & filthy humans are. The story of Satan is something I posted here a lot, so I won't post it again, you'll find it in many verses in the Quran.

Oh, ffs.... [facepalm!]

Really?!

Justify a fairy tale with another fairy tale?
Forgive me for noticing the circular reasoning in there and dismissing it entirely.

With every prophet sent, god shows to satan how strong humans can get with god's support, how faithful they can get with god's support, without even seeing angels or god. Some humans would instantly believe, just by following logic & heart.

You know what prophets are?
People who lived some time ago and who claimed to have some sort of contact with the supernatural.
How many mental disturbances can you list that yield the same kind of self-impression?
I'll give you a hint to one: Van Gogh.

Second, could they be con artists? Could they just know how to manipulate people? There are such people today, some of whom run worshiping temples of various religions... some make up their own... and still people join in!
Some have admitted they were conning people... but the cult they created survived and is still around... people still believe in a known con. Can you believe that?

It also serves another purpose, which is the hammer of god hitting the ego nerve of people. ya know, when people think they know it all, that they also believe they have the right to make fun & kill those who oppose them.

You sound like you need to open your eyes...

Here, watch them all:
Youtube playlist "Why do People Laugh at Creationists?"
Poor Thunderf00t has been at it since 2007... He's built up quite a collection of people confident that they know it all... and then he just shows how wrong those people are, according to our current understanding of those things those people speak of.

It's always the condition, mate. God sends a man prophet, a lot of people start making fun of him & turn his life into a living hell, just because deep inside they thought they know it all. So god deceived them, to let the darkness of their hearts shine, with that prophet the center of attention.

"always"?
Moses.

History marked that Rome tortured Christians & threw them to lions in the arena,

Yes, at some point the christians were a nuisance.
But before they became a nuisance, Rome allowed all religions to anyone.
Now, learn a bit more about how much a nuisance those particular christians were.

marked that Mohammed peace be upon him & his followers saw hell in Mecca at the hands of the heathens,

And who started the conflict?
Can't you imagine some way for a god to send a message to.. oh, I don't know... everyone[!] thus preventing such "hell" that a few people and corresponding followers suffer at the hands of other people.

How do these lunatics get followers is beyond me... but I've already told you that people will stick to a belief, even if it becomes known as a con... so whatever. WAR was the outcome of the revelation that Mohammed got. Congratz, god, you played right into the devil's hand!

marked that Jews saw hell under the hands of the Pharaoh.

What?
Which jews and which pharaoh?

You say wrong.
Logical thinking is independent of ego.

Science proved that the brain operates in patterns. Experience built upon experience ; resulting a unique pattern. So, if ego penetrated that pattern, believe me even your logic will be built upon ego, at least to some extent.

That's what I believe in.

logic is independent from the brain. The logic that we're aware of may be dependent on our current understanding of 3-D geometry... it's difficult to think in 4D... much less 5D... much much less in 6D... and so on....

No it wasn't.
It was meant to the people in or around the arabian peninsula.

Also, why make it arab? A language which is extremely difficult to translate to any other keeping the meaning (and multiple meanings) intact?

Why not make things the proper and right way?

The Quran itself says it's universal !

No it's not... no matter what it says.
The Philosopher's Stone states that wizards go to a special school, they get there by a train that leaves the station from a platform only accessible by going through an apparent wall.
Does that make it so?

Don't you think your argument proves that Islam is the right religion ? or at least point at that direction ?
Because, despite the language you say is "hard", Islam did spread to cover the whole globe & today Muslims are a billion..

So if Arabic wasn't convenient islam would've vanished wouldn't it ?

So if water wasn't wet, the pen wouldn't fall when I dropped it, right?

There are now about 7 billion people on the planet. You claim 1 billion to be muslim... what happened to the other 6 billion? God failed?
Oh, and I'm not even going into the problem of all the different sects within islam.
The same goes for the christians.
Again, your god is incompetent.
The christian god is incompetent
The jew god is even more incompetent.
Heck.. all gods are incompetent, as they FAILED to make everyone know that they exist.... that is, if they (or the only one) actually want people to acknowledge that they are there.

Maybe there is a god, but it couldn't care less if we, lowly humans, think it exists... this is the most likely god hypothesis, the so-called deistic approach. God has no name, has no influence on the comings and goings on this planet... it just started the whole thing and left it running.

Then, I'm a native arab who never left the middle east -yes sir-, I learned English by myself without teachers or courses & fluent in the language,

I'm impressed! Really. you write well.

I don't see any meanings being lost in the translation !

Not even a single meaning !!
All the verses I copied to you perfectly match the arabic ones meaning wise, not a single word is dropped in the middle.

Islam is for everybody. Don't allow a crazy Arab to convince you it's for arabs only and that "Arabic is the language of Islam". Islam is the language of god. Arabic is a human language that Islam was "described with it".

It can also be described in English & any other language.

Well, I don't know any arabic... I only know that whenever any muslim (except you) starts spewing Qur'an verses in this forum, there's always some reference to the multiple meanings of a few particular arab words.

I'm not a Catholic, Pocaracas. I didn't say "he wouldn't go to hell".
I said " god will judge him, nobody can say either he/she would go to hell".

God will judge. It's non of my business. So I better warn before god judges that poor eskimo guy.

It's the same principle.
How do you think a god would judge someone who's ignorant of the religion for that god? compared to someone who is aware of the existence of that religion, but just can't bring himself to believe in it?

It's the same thing for every abrahamic religion, you know?... Kind of like they were all made up around the same story, but then each put in a few local details. Just enough to set it apart... just enough to justify invading the opponent's territory... just enough for WAR!

Again, that similarity is another good sign that Islam is true, and that Abraham along with all the other dear prophets practiced this faith & preached it at different locations.

It's actually a sign that each new "prophet" was born within a culture where he learned the beliefs of the previous "prophets".
Do try to think outside the box you were put when you were a kid!

War ? All I know is that people took those peaceful religions, started to twist it to fit their needs, then waged war under its name ; falsely .

And their god stood by idly and just let it happen.
So, either the guy wanted that to happen, or didn't care... or didn't exist and, once more, people made up the peaceful religions which were then twisted and blah, blah, blah...

Starting with Christian rome, to Ummayad traitor Mo'aweya ibn abu Sufyan.

Christian Rome? You start too late, my friend...
Go back to Assyria... we can't go much further back than that, because of lack of written records.

And how, pray tell, do you know that?
First, that "god is".
Second, that "god is fair".

Honestly I didn't understand what you mean. Please elaborate.

How do you know that "god is", that god exists?
Simple question.
The most honest answer should be "you don't know, you believe. You believe in the same thing your parents and surrounding society taught you to believe", but you won't say that...

The second question requires the first to be answered.
And if you answer the first and assert that it is the muslim god that exists, then, as I said above, that is an incompetent god. How can you trust anything written by someone who heard a deputy of that god talk to him?
How many layers of incompetence do you accept?

The government thing... well... they do attempt to apply justice, but the maxim of "innocent until proven guilty" does allow some actual wrongdoers from sustaining their just penalty. As all human systems, it is an imperfect system, one that attempts to minimize the injustice.

I don't believe that.
Millions around the world don't believe that -including non muslims-.

What people believe or don't believe has no bearing on reality. How many times must I write this?

Foreign policies of world governments disprove every single word you said about them seeking to limit "injustice".

When america & israel invade, all eyes are blind.
But when Russia does it all eyes are opened.

Foreign policies? really?
A government is in place to govern over a particular people, in a particular geographical location.
Foreign policies exist to allow dealings with other governments, but they are a very small subset of what government is.

When america & israel invade, all eyes are blind.
But when Russia does it all eyes are opened.

HAHAHAHA
Israel... maybe you need to peek at the other thread about Israel. Here, I link it for you: https://atheistforums.org/thread-27574.html.
Enjoy.

The state of Israel is recognized by most countries in the world.
As is Croatia.
If any country invades an internationally recognized state, then all eyes turn that way.
If israel invades... what? it's own territory which has been occupied by palestinians... then it is simply attempting to remove hostile forces from their own country - internal policy, nothing to see.
Now, you may argue that it wasn't their country to begin with and they were the first invaders.... you may... that would have been an invasion that happened in the 1950's.
How about the invasion that happened in the 1000's? who invaded who?
Back to WAR, see?
All that your god accomplished by relaying some arab message to some guy in a cave was 1400 years of WAR. congratz, god, you rule (and bring a nice fixed income to warlords and gun makers)!! And there's no end in sight to that WAR.

As long as moderate people like yourself believe that crap and teach your kids about it, there will be cannon fodder to fuel all the WAR that Mohammed created. And a few extremists will sprout here and there and do even more despicable things.

As long as belief is a requirement to acknowledge the existence of a god, the credibility of the religion claiming that that god exists is null.
No one should accept it as valid... That's why there's such a strong focus on indoctrination in all religions.