should america support Israel?

[little_monkey]

Why should Palestinians have a goal other than destroying a country which was imposed upon them and marginalized them in a land to which by all rights they have a stronger claim?

That is disputed by the very fact that Jews were exiled during the Roman empire, which predates Islam by more than 700 years. True that the Jews of the 19th century were "newcomers" but their ancestors were originally from Palestine. The claim that Palestinians have stronger rights than Jews is no more valid that American Natives have more rights than Americans of European ancestry to be in America. Besides that, do you really think that 7 millions Israelis will pick up and leave Israel? And where would they go? It's their home. They won't leave. And Palestinians don't have the military power to achieve their goal. So as long as they continue their war, and keep losing, they will end up where they are today: a life of misery.

[Anomalocaris]

Why should Palestinians have a goal other than destroying a country which was imposed upon them and marginalized them in a land to which by all rights they have a stronger claim?

That is disputed by the very fact that Jews were exiled during the Roman empire, which predates Islam by more than 700 years. True that the Jews of the 19th century were "newcomers" but their ancestors were originally from Palestine. The claim that Palestinians have stronger rights than Jews is no more valid that American Natives have more rights than Americans of European ancestry to be in America. Besides that, do you really think that 7 millions Israelis will pick up and leave Israel? And where would they go? It's their home. They won't leave. And Palestinians don't have the military power to achieve their goal. So as long as they continue their war, and keep losing, they will end up where they are today: a life of misery.

No one else anywhere in the world who makes a claim based on his ancester's ownership 2000 year ago would have his claim countenanced. If such a claim elsewhere were to be countenances, few people in the world would be able to live in any other manner than how the Palestinians are living now. Americans in their suburban houses for example would be facing the bulldozers of our new Native American masters.

So why should the Jews be granted a unique privilege without the consent of those at whose expense this truly unusual privilege is brought to being?

[little_monkey]

That is disputed by the very fact that Jews were exiled during the Roman empire, which predates Islam by more than 700 years. True that the Jews of the 19th century were "newcomers" but their ancestors were originally from Palestine. The claim that Palestinians have stronger rights than Jews is no more valid that American Natives have more rights than Americans of European ancestry to be in America. Besides that, do you really think that 7 millions Israelis will pick up and leave Israel? And where would they go? It's their home. They won't leave. And Palestinians don't have the military power to achieve their goal. So as long as they continue their war, and keep losing, they will end up where they are today: a life of misery.

No one else anywhere in the world who makes a claim based on his ancester's ownership 2000 year ago would have his claim countenanced. If such a claim elsewhere were to be countenances, few people in the world would be able to live in any other manner than how the Palestinians are living now. Americans in their suburban houses for example would be facing the bulldozers of our new Native American masters.

So why should the Jews be granted a unique privilege without the consent of those at whose expense this truly unusual privilege is brought to being?

I agree that the Jews shouldn't be granted a unique privilege in regard to land possession due to their ancestry, but this should be applied as well for the Palestinians. I'm just pointing out what you posted, that "the Palestinian claim is greater", is easily counteracted by the Israeli claim. In my opinion, both claims are irrelevant to what the present situation is.

[Anomalocaris]

Actually, claims based on possession within living memory is usually countenanced in some situations in many parts of the world.

So Palestinian claims based on possession 1, 2 or 3 generations ago can be processed within a context consistent with how claims are usually processed in many places. Jewish claims based on claims 60 generations ago can not. Hence unless one makes the claims that Jews are exceptional and are therefore allowed to dispossess others under terms which would be permitted to no other people on earth, one must give considerable priority to Palestinian claims.

[little_monkey]

Actually, Palestinian claim is greater because claims based on possession within living memory, which Palestinians most certainly have, is usually countenanced in most parts of the world.

So Palestinian claims can be processed within a context consistent with how claims are usually processed. Jewish claims can not. Hence unless one makes the claims that Jews are exceptional and are there allowed to dispossess others under terms which would be permitted to no other people on earth, one must give considerable priority to Palestinian claims.

The vast majority of present Israelis were born in Israel. So according to your own principle of "possession within living memory" they have as much claim as the Palestinians. This debate is getting futile.

[Anomalocaris]

Actually, Palestinian claim is greater because claims based on possession within living memory, which Palestinians most certainly have, is usually countenanced in most parts of the world.

So Palestinian claims can be processed within a context consistent with how claims are usually processed. Jewish claims can not. Hence unless one makes the claims that Jews are exceptional and are there allowed to dispossess others under terms which would be permitted to no other people on earth, one must give considerable priority to Palestinian claims.

The vast majority of present Israelis were born in Israel. So according to your own principle of "possession within living memory" they have as much claim as the Palestinians. This debate is getting futile.

If that didn't deter the first Israelis to notice that vast majority of Palestinians, and their fathers, and their grand fathers, were born in what is soon to be Israel, where as majority of the soon to be Israelis, much less their fathers and grand fathers were not, why should the Palestinians give much thought to where second or third generation Israelis alive now were born?

One might say Israelis gained possession through robbery within living memory. Robbery within living memory usually does not constitute basis for legal ownership.

Perhaps if they manage to hold on to their loot for another 300 years I will feel differently. But right now their so called right to exist does not have any sympathy from me. For now, and for many decades hence, I think Palestinians right to Israeli nonexistence trumps Israeli right to exist.


If historic oppression the Jewish people withstood should be brought out as an argument, then perhaps we could move Israel to Schleswig Holstein, or Languedoc, or county of Kent, or Daleware. No? Perhaps our tears for past antisemitism isn't quite even as convincing to ourselves as we would have them to the Palestinians, then.

[little_monkey]

The vast majority of present Israelis were born in Israel. So according to your own principle of "possession within living memory" they have as much claim as the Palestinians. This debate is getting futile.

If that didn't deter the first Israelis to notice that vast majority of Palestinians, and their fathers, and their grand fathers, were born in what is soon to be Israel, where as majority of the soon to be Israelis, much less their fathers and grand fathers were not, why should the Palestinians give much thought to where second or third generation Israelis alive now were born?

And why would the Isrealis give much thought to that Palestinian claim when they were living there 700 years before any Arab Muslims ever lived there?

Your whole debate so far is grounded on the concept "who has a greater claim", and as I have pointed out: (1) Palestinian claims are easily counteracted by Israeli claims; (2) that debate is irrelevant to the present situation. If you think that 7 million Israelis are going to say, "hey, let's pack and go", you're living in a dream world. The reality, which you have failed to acknowledge so far, is that the Palestinians are at war with the Israelis since 1948 and are unwilling to give up their arm struggle, which is their prerogatives, but then they shouldn't complain when the Israelis bomb them to smithereen. The miserable life they have is of their own doing.

[bberryhill0]

How many of the 5 million Palestinians are involved in the armed struggle? 1%?

[Anomalocaris]

No, I don't think 7 million Israelis would move on their own. But I give 100 million Arabs a higher chance of successfully getting their act together and persevering until they throw the Israelis out in the next 300 years then I would give 7 million Israelis for maintaining their qualitative margin long enough to survive through 300 years.

[little_monkey]

How many of the 5 million Palestinians are involved in the armed struggle? 1%?

I don't know the exact number but consider that they have elected Hamas, whose first political article is the destruction of the state of Israel, then you just can't give the Palestinians special pleading. Secondly, if the Palestinians were strongly inclined to give up their arm struggle, then they would clamp down on their own. Instead, they idolize their "freedom fighters", even as to allow them to shoot from heavy populated areas, build tunnels to smuggle weapons, and by such actions/inactions, they are as guilty as those who are actually fighting.

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No, I don't think 7 million Israelis would move on their own. But I give 100 million Arabs a higher chance of successfully getting their act together and persevering until they throw the Israelis out in the next 300 years then I would give 7 million Israelis for maintaining their qualitative margin long enough to survive through 300 years.

That's exactly the calculus the Palestinians have made. And so, as I have stated, their complain that they have a miserable life is of their own doing.