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(October 1, 2014 at 4:15 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: No, Drich. Posting links from organizations that are explicitly Christian and then using them as evidence for your Christian assertions does not count as third-party.
you don't even look at the web addresses i use do you? The vast majority (unless it is dealing with a religion specific matter) are sourced in secular institutions. I generally seek something benign to start with like a wiki and then move to the source material it references. If I am searching on my own without wiki i will use a search engine from a major university.
Valid as in correct? Doubtful, but according to Drich whatever they believe is okay, as long as they love God through the Bible (and their actions in society while on earth? pfft, irrelevant)
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
Haha! You really are naive about your own religion. Not surprising. Anyway, virtually all scholars recognize 2 Timothy to be a late forgery and clearly the author is referencing the Old Testament as no Canon or "official" list of New Testament "scriptures" had yet been decided by the Church.
Quote:I am asking you to provide links for everything you are asserting here just as I have. Nothing more nothing less.
Again, I did not make the claim you did. I'm sorry ad hoc reasoning and appeals to peer pressure will not work here. I go through great lengths to support absolutly everything I say when asked. I am now asking you to do the same.
It's time to put up or shut up. i have called you bluff, now let me see your cards.
Maybe when I get home and on my computer I'll do some research for you, although, as a Christian who acts as an authority on spiritual matters, you might do yourself a favor by spending even a few minutes understanding how your religion (and particularly, the popular or mainstream strain of it you embrace) actually developed.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
October 1, 2014 at 7:37 pm (This post was last modified: October 1, 2014 at 7:40 pm by Mudhammam.)
(October 1, 2014 at 4:04 pm)Drich Wrote:
(October 1, 2014 at 3:46 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: What's the basis of your claim that the twenty-seven books contained in the N.T. were authorized by God? Did you dream that up in your stupor?
Quote:You're asking where is my "proof" that many Christians disagree with your interpretation of the Bible or what can properly be considered legitimate sources of divine inspiration and wisdom (or in the case of some N.T. epistles, may be omitted?) And you're stating it's a "loft claim" to assert that mainstream scholarship, Christian and non, admit of many interpolations and entire forgeries contained within the official Church / popular Canon?
I am asking you to provide links for everything you are asserting here just as I have. Nothing more nothing less.
Quote:Lol. Wow, not quite onto the meat and potatoes yet? This is pretty basic stuff anyone even remotely interested in anything beyond a surface level understanding of the Bible immediately discovers. Like Jesus, Google is also your friend. Seek and ye shall find.
Again, I did not make the claim you did. I'm sorry ad hoc reasoning and appeals to peer pressure will not work here. I go through great lengths to support absolutly everything I say when asked. I am now asking you to do the same.
It's time to put up or shut up. i have called you bluff, now let me see your cards.
The seven “Undisputed Letters” (a.k.a. the “Authentic Pauline Letters”).
These can be put into three subgroups chronologically:
The Earliest Letter (ca. 50-51 AD): 1 Thessalonians
The Middle Letters (mid 50's): 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Philippians, Philemon, Galatians
The Latest Letter (ca. 57-58 AD): Romans About 95-99% of scholars today agree that all of these letters were actually written by Paul himself.
The six “Disputed Letters” (a.k.a. the “Deutero-Pauline Epistles”). For two of these, the scholarly divide is about 50/50 (that is, about 50% of scholars think they were written by Paul himself, while the other 50% think they are “pseudepigraphic” or written later by a follower of Paul):
If 2 Thessalonians is authentic, Paul probably wrote it soon after 1 Thess (in order to correct some misunderstandings caused by 1 Thess itself), since it is so similar in form and content to 1 Thess.
If Colossians is authentic, Paul probably wrote it near the end of his life (after spending several years in prison), since the theology expressed in it is rather different from Paul's earlier letters.
If either or both of these letters are pseudepigraphic, then they were probably written in the last few decades of the first Christian century.
For the other four letters, about 80% of scholars think they were not written by Paul himself, but by one of his followers after his death:
Ephesians is almost definitely a later expansion of Colossians, since they are so similar in structure and theology, but quite different from Paul's earlier letters; Ephesians was probably written to serve as a “cover letter” for an early collection of Pauline letters.
The Pastoral Epistles (1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus) were most likely written late in the first century by some member(s) of the “Pauline School” who wanted to adapt his teachings to changing circumstances.
Note: Judging a particular letter to be pseudepigraphic does not mean that it is any less valuable than the other letters, but only that it was written later by someone other than Paul.
All thirteen of the letters attributed to Paul are still considered “canonical”; all of them are still part of the Holy Bible and foundational for the Christian Church.
Distinguishing the letters based on actual authorship, however, allows scholars to see more clearly the development of early Christian theology and practice.
The so-called Epistle to the Hebrews is definitely not written by Paul, and is not even explicitly attributed to him.
For centuries, many Christians counted it as the fourteenth work in the Pauline corpus, mainly because the epistolary ending mentions Timothy, Paul's closest associate (see Heb 13:23).
However, contrary to all other letters and epistles, the opening of Hebrews does not name its author at all.
In literary genre, therefore, Hebrews is not really a “letter”; rather, it is a “homily” (a scripture-based sermon).
"By the end of the twentieth century New Testament scholarship was virtually unanimous in affirming that the Pastoral Epistles were written some time after Paul's death. ... As always some scholars dissent from the consensus view."
Source: Collins, Raymond F. 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus: A Commentary. Westminster John Knox Press. 2004.
"For the Orthodox, the recognition of these writings as authoritative was formalized in the Second Council of Trullan of 692, although it was nearly universally accepted in the mid 300s.[1] The Biblical canon was the result of debate and research, reaching its final term for Catholics at the dogmatic definition of the Council of Trent in the 16th Century, when the Old Testament Canon was finalized in the Catholic Church as well."
Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development...ite_note-1
Pelikan, Jaroslav (2005). Whose Bible Is It?. New York, NY: Penguin.
"Canon of the New Testament". Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company.
"Eusebius in his Church History written c. 325 used the term for those Christian scriptures that were "disputed" or literally those works which were "spoken against" in Early Christianity, before the closure of the New Testament canon. It is disputed whether or not Eusebius divides his books into three groups of homologoumena/accepted, antilegomena, and heretical — or four by adding a notha/spurious group. These antilegomena or "disputed writings" were widely read in the Early Church and included the Epistle of James, the Epistle of Jude, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, the Apocalypse of John, the Gospel of the Hebrews, the Apocalypse of Peter (unique in being the only book never accepted as canonical which was commentated upon by a Church Father), the Acts of Paul, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabas and the Didache."
Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antilegomena
Liddell; Scott, A Greek–English Lexicon.
Kalin 2002.
Davis, Glenn (2010), The Development of the Canon of the New Testament, p. 1.
"By the end of the 1st century, some letters of Paul were known to Clement of Rome (fl. 96), together with some form of the "words of Jesus"; but while Clement valued these highly, he did not regard them as "Scripture" ("graphe"), a term he reserved for the Septuagint. Metzger 1987 draws the following conclusion about Clement:
Clement... makes occasional reference to certain words of Jesus; though they are authoritative for him, he does not appear to enquire how their authenticity is ensured. In two of the three instances that he speaks of remembering 'the words' of Christ or of the Lord Jesus, it seems that he has a written record in mind, but he does not call it a 'gospel'. He knows several of Paul's epistles, and values them highly for their content; the same can be said of the Epistle to the Hebrews, with which he is well acquainted. Although these writings obviously possess for Clement considerable significance, he never refers to them as authoritative 'Scripture'.
—page 43"
"Marcion of Sinope, a bishop of Asia Minor who went to Rome and was later excommunicated for his views, was the first of record to propose a definitive, exclusive, unique canon of Christian scriptures, compiled sometime between 130–40 CE... Marcion created a canon, a definite group of books which he regarded as fully authoritative, displacing all others. These comprised ten of the Pauline epistles (without the Pastorals) and Luke's Gospel. It is uncertain whether he edited these books, purging them of what did not accord with his views, or that his versions represented a separate textual tradition.[b]
Marcion's gospel, called simply the Gospel of the Lord, differed from the Gospel of Luke by lacking any passages that connected Jesus with the Old Testament. He believed that the god of Israel, who gave the Torah to the Israelites, was an entirely different god from the Supreme God who sent Jesus and inspired the New Testament.
Marcion termed his collection of Pauline epistles the Apostolikon. These also differed from the versions accepted by later Christian Orthodoxy."
"According to Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there exist roughly 43,000 Christian denominations worldwide in 2012. That is up from 500 in 1800 and 39,000 in 2008 and this number is expected to grow to 55,000 by 2025.
Currently, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary estimates that a new Christian denomination is formed every 10.5 hours, or 2.3 denominations a day.
Catholicism - (1,200,000,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.
Roman Catholic Church (1,187,000,000) Click for beliefs.
Protestantism - (792,000,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.
Pentecostalism/Charismatic (612,000,000) Click for beliefs.
>> Assemblies of God (60,000,000) Click for beliefs.
>> New Apostolic Church (11,200,000) Click for beliefs.
>> Foursquare Church (8,000,000) Click for beliefs.
>> Church of God in Christ (6,500,000) Click for beliefs.
Baptist (100,000,000) Click for beliefs.
>> Southern Baptist Convention (16,000,000) Click for beliefs.
Lutheranism (87,000,000) Click for beliefs.
>> Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (5,000,000) Click for beliefs.
Methodism (75,000,000) Click for beliefs.
>> United Methodist Church (12,000,000) Click for beliefs.
>> African Methodist Episcopal Church (3,000,000*) Click for beliefs.
Reformed Churches (75,000,000) Click for beliefs.
>> Presbyterian Church U.S.A. (3,000,000) Click for beliefs.
>> United Church of Christ (1,000,000) Click for beliefs.
Non-Denominational Evangelicalism (40,000,000) Click for beliefs.
>> Calvary Chapel (25,000,000) Click for beliefs.
>> The Vineyard (15,000,000) Click for beliefs.
Restorationism (20,000,000) Click for beliefs.
>> Seventh-day Adventists (17,000,000) Click for beliefs.
>> Church of Christ (5,000,000) Click for beliefs.
>> Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) (1,000,000) Click for beliefs.
Anabaptism (4,500,000) Click for beliefs.
>> Mennonites (1,500,000) Click for beliefs.
>> Amish (250,000) Click for beliefs.
Eastern Orthodoxy - (230,000,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.
Oriental Orthodox Church - (82,000,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.
Anglicanism - (85,000,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.
Episcopal Church in the U.S.A. (2,400,000) Click for beliefs.
Nontrinitarianism - (36,000,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.
Jehovah’s Witnesses (7,700,000) Click for beliefs.
Mormonism (14,700,000) Click for beliefs.
Nestorianism - (600,000 adherents) Click for beliefs.
(October 1, 2014 at 2:24 pm)Drich Wrote: Ah, no. not even close. http://www.jstor.org/stable/261854?seq=3
as per the artical referenced above:
for the common man
One day's wage=one denarius
One Denarius=10 Asses
One sheet of papyrus=6 asses.
To Put it in terms you can understand. Let's say you make 10 dollars an hour, 100 dollars aday. Out of that $100 it takes 60 dollars to buy one sheet of paper. Then you have to pay a 'scribe' (per line) to write on it.
Now tell me some more about how affordable this was to the common man.
1. You didn't have to pay anyone to write on it.
2. You could always make your own sheets of papyrus at home, it wasn't hard. It probably took about 1/2 hour's labour at the most per sheet (you have to cut and soak the strips for three days, then assemble them, and then press them with a rock).
3. There was a lot more papyrus then you think, certainly a lot more than has survived and exists today.
Quote:Before you do, know you need to either back up your numbers/your version or admit that you are wrong here. You opened your first post to me stating I could not support my claims. What is good for the goose is good for the gander
Quote:the word that describes Joseph's profession, describes both a skilled and unskilled laborer. Couple this with where Jesus grew up (Jesus grew up in Nazerath a military garrison town.) it is most likly that Joseph was probably poor. A great craftsman would do better in a larger city or a port town.
You're making an assumption. If Joseph was a 1st century builder/carpenter then he would most likely have been well paid.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
![[Image: grumpy-cat-and-jesus-meme-died-for-sins.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-_GaCN-f8ZFo%2FUNfmimTyf4I%2FAAAAAAAANmk%2FoakT_wL319U%2Fs1600%2Fgrumpy-cat-and-jesus-meme-died-for-sins.jpg)
Ah, no. not even close.