To explain knowledge of God

[pocaracas]

What if you're convinced you're worshiping the god of the bible, but you're worshiping something not quite like it?
One of

God has promised to test what we build with floods and fire.. In other words He will put our faiths to the test. That is what "Trials" are for. So we know whether or not what we have built has been built on the foundation of Jesus Christ as God of the bible has provided.

I can't understand the requirement of faith.
Why would such a being as a god require that we believe in it without any evidence for such belief?
Why should we have to take the word of other people?
Why should we have to take the word of other people who wrote that word for future generations?

Why, then, must such faith be put to any test?
What does this entity stand to gain through faith that it couldn't get through knowledge and instilling respect?

The requirement of faith, to me, makes god look like a human construct... a cunning construct, or one that has been refined throughout the millennia, but one that takes advantage of certain pitfalls of the human mind.
Not all human minds are receptive to such pitfalls, as is clear by the timeless tradition of atheism, but most are... and most do fall prey to them, regardless of the god which is being believed in. The mechanism is the same.

It's not that we don't want to worship any god... it's that we don't accept the premise that such an entity exists to begin with.
So we look at the world around us and follow where it leads.

That's not true. A/S/K is how we look for anything of consenquence in the world around us.. Just look at the opposition and push back I am getting trying to get you guys to just put the same effort into looking for God as you would looking for anything else.

Really? not true?
Did Newton not experience gravity far before formulating how it works?
Did Archimedes not get in the bath before he had his Eureka moment?
Did Edison not observe lightning before figuring out how to work with electricity?

Sometimes, I feel like it would be good to have some "history of science" classes. Not a science class in the classical sense, just something that gives you context and chronology to the accumulated body of knowledge that mankind came to call "science". This is something I find terribly lacking in most theists.

Finally, you wish that we look for god, and yet, provide no god for us to look for. You provide us with mental exploits which manage to convince a considerable segment of the population. But which, knowing beforehand of their exploitative nature, we logically refuse to undertake them!
What you register as a opposition is us simply refusing to let our mental guard down. We know full well how wrong that method can be. And we've been telling you this all along and, just when I thought you had registered that... you stick with it...

Question(s): how did people come to know the god of the bible, before there was a bible?

---

Do you know of the parables of the talents? It is where Jesus tells the story of a Land owner who had several servants. To the first He gave 3 talents/bags of Gold. to the next 2 and to the last 1 talent. each according to his/her ablities. The land owner went away for a while then came back. when he came back he summoned the servants to see what they did with the money he gave them.
The first doubled what he was given and gave his master 6 bags, the second also doubled his portion and returned 4 bags the third buried/hid/ignored what he was given because he was afraid of using it. the servant thought it better to return what was given, rather invest the money he was intrusted with.. The Land owner condemned the last servant for not being faithful to what he had been given. took what the last man had and gave it to the guy with 6 bags of gold.

---

The same is true here replace bags of gold with the bible. Our generation has the bible therefore responsiable for it's content in our beliefs. the generations who did not have it are only responsiable for what God put infront of them. In short God will judge us based on what we truly had been exposed to.

I've been exposed to lots of things. And they've brought me to be as I am.
Like Ricky Gervais said, "if god is real, then why did he make me an atheist?"

You too have been exposed to the Qur'an, why don't you keep to it?
It is one of the latest "true" interactions of the divine with mankind... it should be even more "true" than the christian bible... and yet, you don't see it that way... why?

Were they not intended to go to heaven?
Was there no sifting?

I'm assuming you do not know they had literal prophets to directly tell them the will of God. What the prophets of God said and did was written down compiled and that is where we get the bible. So before the bible man had the orginal source material to work with.

Come on, man. Think out of the box.... China, 4000 years ago. Which prophets?

Why should people desire to "serve God for all eternity"?

What would be better to serve one who literally controls Everything? or to be free in a literal void?

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Put 17th century slavery out of you mind for a second and Imagine what it was to joseph to 'Serve' the Pharroah of Egypt. Yes Joseph was a slave by defination, but at the same time he was literally the #2 guy in all of egypt in his time. He ruled the world power of that day. He was over every other living being in the known world except for the Pharroah himself. now contrast a life like that and all the benfits of privliges contained in it, with being placed in the pacific ocean 10,000 miles from anything doomed to tread water for eternity with no hope of anything other than what you have in your power to speak into existance...

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Are you sure those are the only two options?

Lastly, if the ASK method can yield results even if no god is actually there, why should it be used? It seems like it's flawed at its core.

A/S/K is used all day every day by everyone from screaming for a diaper change to searching for a practical cure for ebolia to finding a mate, to building our next space shuttle.

A/S/K only works if one is willing to keep knocking to he finds what his heart truly wants. If you truly want to find and worship the God of the bible God will honor your efforts if you keep at it.

"he finds what his heart truly wants. "
If you truly want to find and worship the god of the Qur'an, god will honor your efforts if you keep at it.
If you truly want to find and worship the gods of the Vedas, the gods will honor your efforts if you keep at it.
If you truly want to find and worship the god of the Valhalla, god will honor your efforts if you keep at it.

Can't you yet see how flawed the method is?

[professor]

Pocaracus, I read your last line above and your take on what Drich said is what is flawed.
The real God does NOT honor the seeking after false gods with any kind of positive response.
The response is to let these people CHOOSE to believe a lie, just as He lets everyone here follow their own choosing.

The A/S/K method Drich tells us of goes like this-
Idea / investigation, experimentation/ development/ new reality.
It is the scientific method.
How can you not see it?

[pocaracas]

Pocaracus, I read your last line above and your take on what Drich said is what is flawed.
The real God does NOT honor the seeking after false gods with any kind of positive response.

No, Drich said it works just as well for any god.
And, in reality, IT DOES!!
You have billions of people convinced of the existence of some god(s) which is NOT the god of the bible.
And I'm sure you can find examples from those people who carry out the same methodology and found their god(s), their rules, their holy books.

The response is to let these people CHOOSE to believe a lie, just as He lets everyone here follow their own choosing.

How is that different from non-existence?

The A/S/K method Drich tells us of goes like this-
Idea / investigation, experimentation/ development/ new reality.
It is the scientific method.
How can you not see it?

IDEA: Allah is all knowing and wants you to pray 5 times a day facing Mecca.
Experimentation: Hey, Mr Allah, tell me if you really want me to pray 5 times a day.
Development: nothing happens.
New reality: Allah doesn't reply, Allah doesn't exist and, as a result, can't want me to pray 5 times a week facing Mecca.


However, if I really wanted it, I'd pray 5 times a day... I'd find other people who also pray 5 times a day and join them. Become friends and my life would, in principle, improve. Along the way, my belief that Allah is real would be enhanced for I'd be witnessing my life improving due to my faith.
Textbook example and very close to what happened to Drich.

Did it improve due to the existence of Allah itself?
Or did it improve due to the faith posited in the shared concept of Allah, regardless of the existence of the Allah character?

In other words, does Allah exist as an independent entity, or is it a merely a concept shared by those who believe in its existence? A concept reinforced by all those who believe in it. A concept, seemingly worth spreading to as many people as possible, for the maximum possible effect.

(replace Allah for your favorite deity and corresponding religious requirements and the argument is the same)

[Fidel_Castronaut]

The A/S/K method Drich tells us of goes like this-
Idea / investigation, experimentation/ development/ new reality.
It is the scientific method.
How can you not see it?

Lol, nah, it ain't.

[Drich]

I have been tring to figure out what this picture says for two days... I dont get it.

---

What does it even mean to yield to science?

To surrender yourself/Your thought processes to whatever is labled 'science' without question.

I use and depend upon scientific discoveries. So does anyone living in an even remotely industrialized part of the world.

This statement is the perfect example of yeilding to science.. In that you have lumped everything into one catagory, when infact there should be several different catagories. Scientific discoveries is one catagory, but not everything that can be considered 'scientific' is indeed as trust worthy as the principles we literally have built the mordern age off of.

But I wouldn't equate using and yielding to. Scientific laws I can't help yielding to. That's why this is such a grand description of trying the impossible:

That's not true. Have you 'went green?' why?

I recognized the authority of the state but not as matter of blind faith. There are times when defiance is a good idea.

Indeed but what I am talking about is not defiance. I am talking about 1thess 5:21 Question ALL Things and hold on to what is Good!
That means dont just question the questionable it also means to question the foundational. To question the very principles we have built our lives on. An example of this is what I did when I researched solar output and found information as to the reason why the climbate changes, and not 'green house gasses.' Yet at the same time the end goal of getting humanity off of the dependance of foreign oil, is something we need to do, if not for the enviroment for the plain and simple fact we can leave that place and them go back to cutting each other's heads off.

So why is it important to make the distinction in the true source of global warming and what 'science/al gore' told us if the net result is the same? Control over one's own mind and one's own thought processes. Not yeilding to popular science just because the rest of the flock is following it. To not be maniuplated in how and what i think or how to live my life.

ASK as you propose it involves asking yourself what you want and seeking confirmation of it internally.

That's not true at all. That's a strawman all of you keep returning to, and I keep telling you that God is the other half of that process. One can not honestly hold on to what God has stripped away. Again that is why so many of you are atheist. God answered your prayers by taking your empty religious beliefs from you.

Repeatedly asking the public and doing so with reasons, isn't the least bit similar. Comparing ASK to public protest is like comparing masturbation to sex with someone else.

while the details of how ejaculation is obtained varies, the net result is the same.

The experience in how one A/S/K does not change the fact that one asks for something seeks it out and then continues till he gets it.

As with the case of science if the truth is parramount then even if a false hypothsis/god is initially adopted, it's testing/Trials will eventually reveal itself. Then it is up to the indivisual to either ignore the truth or start his/her search over again. That is why knocking is so important. Because we are start out wrong, and it will take a few attempts before we Find the God of the Bible.

Uh huh? Tell me about this testing the hypothesis part, because I sure don't see it. What would falsify your belief in god?

Really?

Christ Himself uses the parable of the wise and foolish builders
(Take the time to read the story)
luke 6:
46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.[h] 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell.[i] And the ruin of that house was great.”

In the story the 'house Christ is refering to is your faith is your belief in God and who you define God to be.

Now the foundation is Jesus or rather an accurate picture of Jesus meaning who He was, what He did and why. Now if you ASK with a bad picture of Christ/God when God sends the rains (usally at our request/when we ask for proof of Him or a closer relationship) Your faith will fail, meaning God takes away your orginal understanding of Him so you can build a new/accurate one. That is why so many of you are here as Atheist.. (coupled with a touch of pride.) In that it was your belief that you had the 'fullest most complete' understanding of God there is and because you put in what you thought to be a 'all in' effort and received nothing, you concluded that God can not exist because you did not find Him in all your best efforts first time out the gate. (That's the pride part, the assumption that God is going to rush in and chase after you.)

So in short God 'falsifies' anyone's effort to find Him, by sending the trials of life (Like Cancer) Now if one goes through said trial and is fortified in their beliefs, then it is likely they had help from who it is they choose to worship.. Whether that is the God of the bible or not will depend on how far the help they received is from scripture.

Bingo, it is a one sided endeavor. There is no evidence it isn't. That Mormons and others also think it isn't a one sided endeavor and yet get different results is evidence that it is one sided.

Again at the end of A/S/K as out lined by Luke 11 is One on One time with the Holy Spirit/God. What better proof of God is there than God Himself?

[Drich]

I can't understand the requirement of faith.

God requires a mustard seed's worth of faith.. We place more than that in the airlines we fly with. God only requires enough faith to A/S/K

Why would such a being as a god require that we believe in it without any evidence for such belief?

Pride. Rather the lack of it, is required to approach God the way He has commanded.

Why should we have to take the word of other people?

Humility/service. Once saved we are not equals. we are servants./slaves Slaves/servants get told what to do.

Why should we have to take the word of other people who wrote that word for future generations?

Truth is truth what does it matter when or who it came from?

Why, then, must such faith be put to any test?

to be transformed to belief. to provide proof. to have that mustardseed Grow into a productive plant... Or did you not know that the seed, gets destroyed when the plant starts to grow?

What does this entity stand to gain through faith that it couldn't get through knowledge and instilling respect?

Knoweledge commands pride and ownership of said knowlwedge. God and man's pride can not coexist.
When you truly humble yourself all that you have you understand has been given as a gift, and that you/I am not the source of said knoweledge/wisdom but just a conduit.

The requirement of faith, to me, makes god look like a human construct... a cunning construct, or one that has been refined throughout the millennia, but one that takes advantage of certain pitfalls of the human mind.

Again that is the reason for trials.. to help the one stuck in faith move past it and receive outside proof. lets say you contract a deadly disease that their is no cure for, and God walks you through that trial and you come out on the other side... 'Science' Will tell you that it was an anomoly or that it was miss diagnosed.. but what do you think you would think/feel when God personally walks you though the impossiable? Now what if you lead a life of walking through the impossiable everyday? How much 'faith' do you think you would need if you could see the impossiable happen day in and day out?
Not very much because you will have accumilated a life time of proof. Albeit not proof enough for everyone else but it is proof enough for you.. And that's exactly what God offers Each of us. a lifetime filled of the impossiable... But again because it is impossiable what you will be made to endure will be difficult. these difficulties are often times labled 'trials.'

Really? not true?
Did Newton not experience gravity far before formulating how it works?
Did Archimedes not get in the bath before he had his Eureka moment?
Did Edison not observe lightning before figuring out how to work with electricity?

Sometimes, I feel like it would be good to have some "history of science" classes. Not a science class in the classical sense, just something that gives you context and chronology to the accumulated body of knowledge that mankind came to call "science". This is something I find terribly lacking in most theists.

I was a student of History long before i took intrest in Christianity, and if you look at my posts i often turn back to it to illustrate a point or turn in our modern day soceity.. If you want to talk history then stop talking about it and start using it.

Finally, you wish that we look for god, and yet, provide no god for us to look for.

Because God is not my pet monkey that I can simply produce.. If you want to meet God you will have to do it on His terms. His first is to check your pride and approach him not as some old grandfather, but as the Master and Commander of creation. Take off your hat, bend your knee do it right, and He has literally promised He will show up.

For me and mine He has time and time again.

You provide us with mental exploits which manage to convince a considerable segment of the population. But which, knowing beforehand of their exploitative nature, we logically refuse to undertake them!

Again what if they happened to you? What I have provided is what God offers you. This is not like a museum where there is a display and a sheet of glass to keep you from what I have experienced.. You too can have cancer or aids!! and if you want i can pray that you get it!!!
(Someone let stimbo know I'm back at it)

The point being God is willing to carry you through these deep valleys/situation that we endure so that you know the only reason you came out on the other side is becaus He put you there.

What you register as a opposition is us simply refusing to let our mental guard down.

That is not true because i have demonstrated that in this case A/S/K is used in everyday life for just about everything we do, EXCEPT for seeking out God.

We know full well how wrong that method can be. And we've been telling you this all along and, just when I thought you had registered that... you stick with it...

What you all dont seem to get that it is not my method. That is why I keep refering to luke 11. and the story Jesus put with it to illustrat this principle. The reason He did that was to show that this principle is tied to our core existance. Look at what he said: A man was looking for food/bread to feed some hungry guests.. Again, the primal need to eat spawned this A/S/K instinct. This wasn't some manufactured will plotted out plan this guy used to get bread. He simply did what he would naturally do when the need was great enough.

This is ALL God wants us to do. Is to be spiritually hungry enough to seek him as we would seek to feed ourselves when a little oppsition comes our way.

I've been exposed to lots of things. And they've brought me to be as I am.
Like Ricky Gervais said, "if god is real, then why did he make me an atheist?"

Atheism is often the result of an answered prayer, coupled with some pride (See my last post for greater detail)

You too have been exposed to the Qur'an, why don't you keep to it?

Because the trials of life washed it and allah away.

It is one of the latest "true" interactions of the divine with mankind... it should be even more "true" than the christian bible... and yet, you don't see it that way... why?

Because God did not support what was contained in that book.

Come on, man. Think out of the box.... China, 4000 years ago. Which prophets?

If 4000 years ago the chinese were sent prophets and they have no record now, then thoses people did not want to have God in their lives. The point being God will rightly judge them based on what they were exposed to, just like everyone else.

[

Are you sure those are the only two options?

yup

"he finds what his heart truly wants. "
If you truly want to find and worship the god of the Qur'an, god will honor your efforts if you keep at it.

Open up the book and give it your best effort, and let the trials of life sift that religion for you.

If you truly want to find and worship the gods of the Vedas, the gods will honor your efforts if you keep at it.

Open up the book and give it your best effort, and let the trials of life sift that religion for you.

If you truly want to find and worship the god of the Valhalla, god will honor your efforts if you keep at it.

Open up the book and give it your best effort, and let the trials of life sift that religion for you.

Can't you yet see how flawed the method is?

no, I honestly can not.
maybe if you considered all that I have said to you, rather than defaulting to an old dawkins tactic of trying to establish the inablity of falsification, by creating a string of sterotypical strawmen, and knocking them down rather than speaking to what i have said, you would be hard pressed in seeing any flaws either.

---

The A/S/K method Drich tells us of goes like this-
Idea / investigation, experimentation/ development/ new reality.
It is the scientific method.
How can you not see it?

Lol, nah, it ain't.

yah huh it is

[Cyberman]

Scientific Method:

Observation -> hypothesis -> investigation/experiment -> comparison of results with observation -> confirm -> reinforce hypothesis, else modify -> repeat until results concur with observation, else abandon hypothesis and start from scratch. Publish paper -> peers test findings to failure point -> confirm results, else correct errors/biases -> findings survive peer review, else destroyed -> theory.

And that's the Janet And John version.

[pocaracas]

This is turning into a Statler-Waldorf kind of reply!

I can't understand the requirement of faith.

God requires a mustard seed's worth of faith.. We place more than that in the airlines we fly with. God only requires enough faith to A/S/K

WHY? What's his problem? Why can't he just present himself as the being that you claim he is?
Why the mental charade?

Why would such a being as a god require that we believe in it without any evidence for such belief?

Pride. Rather the lack of it, is required to approach God the way He has commanded.

Not really an answer...

Why should we have to take the word of other people?

Humility/service. Once saved we are not equals. we are servants./slaves Slaves/servants get told what to do.

That's how people fall for cons... how do you know you're not a victim?

Why should we have to take the word of other people who wrote that word for future generations?

Truth is truth what does it matter when or who it came from?

Truth should bear some resemblance with reality.
The reality I observe, the reality you observe, the reality that the chinese from 4000 years ago observed.
These realities are, on average, not compatible with the existence of the entity you wish for me to believe.

Why, then, must such faith be put to any test?

to be transformed to belief. to provide proof. to have that mustardseed Grow into a productive plant... Or did you not know that the seed, gets destroyed when the plant starts to grow?

Wut?!
Faith transformed to belief?
Try to explain that without metaphors, so I can understand what you mean.

What does this entity stand to gain through faith that it couldn't get through knowledge and instilling respect?

Knoweledge commands pride and ownership of said knowlwedge. God and man's pride can not coexist.
When you truly humble yourself all that you have you understand has been given as a gift, and that you/I am not the source of said knoweledge/wisdom but just a conduit.

Sounds like a cop out.
Why can't god and man's pride coexist? Is there any logical rule that even god can't break regarding pride?
If there is, how would you know about it?

The requirement of faith, to me, makes god look like a human construct... a cunning construct, or one that has been refined throughout the millennia, but one that takes advantage of certain pitfalls of the human mind.

Again that is the reason for trials.. to help the one stuck in faith move past it and receive outside proof. lets say you contract a deadly disease that their is no cure for, and God walks you through that trial and you come out on the other side... 'Science' Will tell you that it was an anomoly or that it was miss diagnosed.. but what do you think you would think/feel when God personally walks you though the impossiable? Now what if you lead a life of walking through the impossiable everyday? How much 'faith' do you think you would need if you could see the impossiable happen day in and day out?
Not very much because you will have accumilated a life time of proof. Albeit not proof enough for everyone else but it is proof enough for you.. And that's exactly what God offers Each of us. a lifetime filled of the impossiable... But again because it is impossiable what you will be made to endure will be difficult. these difficulties are often times labled 'trials.'

Let's say you contract a non-fatal, but chronic wound, like... lose a leg. god walks thousands through that trial every day... none of them have grown a leg back.
Diseases and other things we can't actually see and fully understand how they work, due to their complexity or small scale, cannot have cures and effects attributed to any god, for it will be considered "god of the gaps".

Gaps, of which there are still many in our understanding of the world...
Gaps which fuel belief in gods by many.. including you, if I'm not mistaken.

Finally, you wish that we look for god, and yet, provide no god for us to look for.

Because God is not my pet monkey that I can simply produce.. If you want to meet God you will have to do it on His terms. His first is to check your pride and approach him not as some old grandfather, but as the Master and Commander of creation. Take off your hat, bend your knee do it right, and He has literally promised He will show up.

Then let him produce himself.
Considering how humanity has evolved from primates, at some point, if there is such a being, it must have contacted humans and relayed his message onto them.
Let him do the same with me and all, if he wishes me to acknowledge his existence.
If he does not wish it, then just carry on.

For me and mine He has time and time again.

hmmm... do you have a photo of such a "show up"?

You provide us with mental exploits which manage to convince a considerable segment of the population. But which, knowing beforehand of their exploitative nature, we logically refuse to undertake them!

Again what if they happened to you? What I have provided is what God offers you. This is not like a museum where there is a display and a sheet of glass to keep you from what I have experienced.. You too can have cancer or aids!! and if you want i can pray that you get it!!!
(Someone let stimbo know I'm back at it)

What you have provided is not what "god offers me", but what someone wrote in the bible about that god. And you believe in the contents of the bible, hence, you believe that the god offers anything.

Don't turn things around, man.
First and foremost, thus far, you have let us know this: you believe in the bible. (specifically the NT... the OT is nasty and needs some cherry picking, am I right?)

The point being God is willing to carry you through these deep valleys/situation that we endure so that you know the only reason you came out on the other side is becaus He put you there.

And yet, all those valleys can be attributed to natural causes, as well as the climbing out of them.
Why should I even consider the option of a god, if no one had come up with that concept before me?

What you register as a opposition is us simply refusing to let our mental guard down.

That is not true because i have demonstrated that in this case A/S/K is used in everyday life for just about everything we do, EXCEPT for seeking out God.

Didn't I say something about Newton, before?

We know full well how wrong that method can be. And we've been telling you this all along and, just when I thought you had registered that... you stick with it...

What you all dont seem to get that it is not my method. That is why I keep refering to luke 11. and the story Jesus put with it to illustrat this principle. The reason He did that was to show that this principle is tied to our core existance.

I know it's not "your" method... it's a way of speaking!
But yes, you're right, it's something tied to our core existence.

Something in the way our brains work, makes the ASK method work the same for any concept of god.
If you seek the god of the Qur'an, you find the god of the Qur'an.
If you seek the god of the bible, you find the god of the bible.
If you seek anything spiritual, you find something spiritual.

Look at what he said: A man was looking for food/bread to feed some hungry guests.. Again, the primal need to eat spawned this A/S/K instinct. This wasn't some manufactured will plotted out plan this guy used to get bread. He simply did what he would naturally do when the need was great enough.

This is ALL God wants us to do. Is to be spiritually hungry enough to seek him as we would seek to feed ourselves when a little oppsition comes our way.

And yet, I'm not spiritually hungry.
I feel no spiritual hunger whatsoever. Never have... likely, never will. What now?

It is one of the latest "true" interactions of the divine with mankind... it should be even more "true" than the christian bible... and yet, you don't see it that way... why?

Because God did not support what was contained in that book.

But god does support it for many many people...
They will claim the same thing you claim, but for their god.

Come on, man. Think out of the box.... China, 4000 years ago. Which prophets?

If 4000 years ago the chinese were sent prophets and they have no record now, then thoses people did not want to have God in their lives. The point being God will rightly judge them based on what they were exposed to, just like everyone else.

Then I will be judged based on my perception of what I was exposed to.
My perception is that all notions of god are attempted cons, so the big guy will take that into consideration.

[

Are you sure those are the only two options?

yup

How about the third where nothing happens nor exists after death? You just get turned off and returned to being as you were before you were conceived: a bunch of scattered particles with no collective impetus.

Can't you yet see how flawed the method is?

no, I honestly can not.
maybe if you considered all that I have said to you, rather than defaulting to an old dawkins tactic of trying to establish the inablity of falsification, by creating a string of sterotypical strawmen, and knocking them down rather than speaking to what i have said, you would be hard pressed in seeing any flaws either.

strawmen, huh? I apologize if that's how they look. They are my best attempt at understanding your position. If they are flawed, it may be because of my limited reading capability.... it may be because of your limited writing capability... it may be because I bring to the table a different set of tools to look at what you write and we end up trying to pass on a message that never reaches the other side in full.

I keep attempting to provide you with the information about how the mind can be tricked into believing in something that isn't necessarily true, if it uses the ASK method.
I, too, must be failing at this task. I am sorry.
I am no psychologist, nor neurologist... perhaps humanity's accumulated knowledge about the way the mind works is still too limited for me to properly convey that notion to you.

[dyresand]

For the ones who know me I'm not back, I left with something left unanswered and thought I would answer.
Many asked me how I could possibly have knowledge of God's existence and the answer is the NT teaches this, Christians can know and have knowledge of God. You guys want to throw out that all we can have is faith and the NT just doesn't teach that. Our faith is in the hope that God will do those things He has promised to do for Christians, this is what our faith is about and the NT teaches this very thing. So in short those who are Christians will have the knowledge God exists and will have faith that He will continue to keep His promises as he did in the past. I trust that He is not a liar and so far His record holds true. Read the NT and find these simple facts, they are there if you have the courage to look and are as open minded as you claim, which I have my doubts about the open mindedness.

GC

i dont feel like writing but here you go in picture book format.










^true.

[Mister Agenda]

]again you are ASK'ing only as long as it takes for you to abandon your corrupt picture of God, open your bible with a open heart and begin to build a picture based on what you find there. If that takes you 50 years then may I intrest you in some Mormonism or perhaps some Allah.

Or maybe some snake oil?

you guys love to talk circumstance and avoid detail like the plague. For instance you are padding your excuse folder with all these reason why it wouldn't be a good idea to do this, and yet at the same time use this same method in just about every other aspect of your life. See my response to Jen-A for detail.

Name another aspect of my life where I use A/S/K as you outline it, please. I would like to hear the other situations where if you ever conclude that what you're looking for isn't there, it automatically means you failed to do it right.

God is not an organ grinder monkey I can produce to take a dollar for a bag of peanuts when ever someone want to see him do a trick.

God doesn't have to make a personal appearance or do tricks. But he can't even make you a better salesman, even with clear instructions: be as harmless as doves and wise as serpents...that describes no Christian I've ever encountered online. As far as I can tell, none of them even try.

God offers The Holy Spirit who humble themselves to Him and seek Him out as instructed. Your proof is avaiable but only you can claim it and only directly from God.

That's a mere assertion. I can do that, too: no, it isn't.

strawman much? The bible is true because in it is a very specific set of promises that we as believers can collect on in this life. If we ABC we will receive 123. And if we are faithful to the 123 we are given we will be given much more. I did the ABC, received the 123, was faithful and have rolled it over and over into a 18, 19, 20.

And if someone gets different results, they didn't do it right. There's no scam artist that can't say that about their wonder product. It's what they all say. My snake oil cures all ailments, if applied correctly. And since most ailments cure themselves eventually, there will always be people able to honestly report that the snake oil works, and absolutely sure that if it didn't work for someone, it's because they didn't do it right.

The 'map' works for any 'treasure' you decide you want to believe in, in advance. It works just as well for finding Krishna as it does for finding Jesus.

Again, what the prolem is?

Krishna is imaginary (or do you disagree?). A method that enables you to 'find out' that imaginary things are true is worse than useless, it'a a recipe for inducing delusion.

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Aren't Atheists too stumbling on blind faith but hypocritically accuse us Christians of doing so?

For example?