Can atheists convert theists?

[Ace Otana]

Are you going to try and prove that the universe is godless? If so, why just you?

Are you going to try and prove the universe is santaless? Thorless? FSMless? Toothfairyless?

Hmmmm!!?!?

[Godhead]

Ace -

He offered.

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

In answer to your questions, I'm not that keen on the word "conclusion' as it implies finality, and excludes the possibility of changing one's mind, but in terms of my personal evidence and my reasoning, it's because firstly, I feel an awareness that everything is conscious and everything is one thing, and that there's a god and all things are a manifestation of god, and I feel that awareness in the same way that we all feel an awareness that we are in a physical world (ie it's obvious to us, it's in our face). That feeling, to me, is backed up by my reasoning, which is that for something to exist, it must be self aware, and that it must be part of a whole as well as autonomous, and that it must have a manifest and unmanifest aspect. Are you going to try and prove that the universe is godless? If so, why just you?

The term 'conclusion' does not imply finality. The supposition that you 'concluded' with god doesn't imply that you can't change your mind, it simply implies that it's the result of a problem - not unlike the "4" of "2 + 2".

Very well, we seem to be getting somewhere in determining where you're coming from, but I still expect answers from my previous questions -

What role does god play in our physical world?

My newest question will be that, given your feeling of the existance of a concious and thinking entity that permiates everything, how did you come to the understanding that these feelings are revealing an interconnected, thinking, concious entity? How do you understand this to be god and not anything else?

To answer your question, attempting to disprove god's existence is impossible when you define him as leaving no traces of his existance. My only statement in this regard is that if god has no trace of himself in the universe, then what's the point of attributing the universe to or of god when everything can have a causation independant of his/her/its influence that's explainable with the tools we have and the understanding we've come to know of our universe?

In other words, if everything can be explained and proven with empiracle evidence without god in the equation, then there is no real point in adding him to the solution arbitrarily.

[Godhead]

Darkness of angels -

In my view, god doesn't play any role in the sense that one would assume, ie it doesn't "do" anything, or interact with or intervene in anything, or contribute to anything. The reason for that is because in my view, god IS everything. If you want to count that as a role that's fine but I don't really consider it a role, because a role implies taking part in something, whereas I believe that god already is everything (and simultaneously beyond everything).

The reason why I call it god is because I believe that consciousness is involved, I believe that the universe is a living, conscious thing, a manifestation. To use an illustration (lthough it's not the most accurate), god is the mind, and the universe is the body (therefore interconnected), and god (the mind) infinitely transcends the body and is selfexistent (uncreated), and god manifests and the universe is that manifestation. That's why I don't just call it nature, because consciousness is involved. I'm a panentheist.

Given that view (and I know you don't share it), the universe itself is the "trace" of god's existence. And I fully understand that one would only regard the universe as being the trace of god's existence if one has the view that I have. This would make it very difficult for you to demonstrate that the universe involves no god, because you'd first have to convince me that panentheism is not the corert view in the first place. In other words, you'd have to challenge my initial premise. If you did that, practically everything else in my belief system would fall in an instant.

[Ace Otana]

Ace -

He offered.

I'll take that as a dodge. How disappointing.

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

In my view, god doesn't play any role in the sense that one would assume, ie it doesn't "do" anything, or interact with or intervene in anything, or contribute to anything. The reason for that is because in my view, god IS everything. If you want to count that as a role that's fine but I don't really consider it a role, because a role implies taking part in something, whereas I believe that god already is everything (and simultaneously beyond everything).

There is still another thing I don't understand about your view.
So far, I've gotten what exactly your idea of what god is and does and I've gotten most but not the most important thing about what led you to god. If I understand you correctly, you've arrived to god based on the feelings you have about your surroundings.

The reason why I call it god is because I believe that consciousness is involved, I believe that the universe is a living, conscious thing, a manifestation. To use an illustration (lthough it's not the most accurate), god is the mind, and the universe is the body (therefore interconnected), and god (the mind) infinitely transcends the body and is selfexistent (uncreated), and god manifests and the universe is that manifestation. That's why I don't just call it nature, because consciousness is involved. I'm a panentheist.

But how is it possible for you to have arrived to that conclusion?
If you've 'felt god out' so to speak with your intuition and reasoning, exactly how did you use those tools to discover what you've just told me?

It's also necessary to mention the lack of any traces of this powerful intelligence that we can recognize. You might say that that's by design, but if that were the case, then I still have to question any human ability to detect anything of this nature, which leads me back to my previous question of how you've 'sensed' god and determined that this feeling equates to god over anything else.

Given that view (and I know you don't share it), the universe itself is the "trace" of god's existence. And I fully understand that one would only regard the universe as being the trace of god's existence if one has the view that I have. This would make it very difficult for you to demonstrate that the universe involves no god, because you'd first have to convince me that panentheism is not the corert view in the first place. In other words, you'd have to challenge my initial premise. If you did that, practically everything else in my belief system would fall in an instant.

To proove to you that the universe is godless, I need to know what, to you, the universe would be without god and why the universe needs god to exist.

[Godhead]

Darkness of angels -

I'm not sure I understand your first question about how did I use whatever tools to discover what I've told you. How do I sense god? With intuition. I then question that intuition with reason and reason supports it. In my view it's impossible to have a universe without god, because the universe is god. I can't describe what the universe would be like without god other than to say that there would be nothing.

[Cego_Colher]

the universe itself is the "trace" of god's existence. And I fully understand that one would only regard the universe as being the trace of god's existence if one has the view that I have.

I know I might be making a comparison that isn't really relevant, but I'm going to say it anyway. There is some art that is actually just the aftermath of the art. Like a Pollock the art isn't the paint on the canvas but how he painted. We can't see Pollock painting, but we can see the painting. Would this be an apt comparison, Godhead. God is the art and the universe is the leftovers?

[Godhead]

Cego -

In the sense that the universe is the symptom and god is the source, yes. However a more fitting comparison would be that god is the fact and the universe is the event. Or something like that.

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

I'm not sure I understand your first question about how did I use whatever tools to discover what I've told you. How do I sense god? With intuition. I then question that intuition with reason and reason supports it. In my view it's impossible to have a universe without god, because the universe is god. I can't describe what the universe would be like without god other than to say that there would be nothing.

Let me clarify because you're not being absolutely clear with me about your reasoning.
You tell me that you sensed god with intuition, supported by reason, but I want you to tell me how.
I want to know what you sensed that that you could only reason would be god.

For example, it's like you're telling me that you built a car with a wrench but you don't have a blueprint to show me. If you're familiar with south park, you'll recognize this analogy as well:

intuition and common sense --> ???????? --> GOD!

Do you understand what I'm saying?

I do also have a new question for you: Why do you feel the universe couldn't exist without god?

I'm aware that you feel they are one and the same, but you get zero differing results if I say that the big bang formed the universe and everything we know that is in it, but there is no god.
For example, your equation is this: God = Universe
My equation is this: Universe = Universe
This is because I can observe, measure, and confirm the existence of this universe and I cannot by any sense or machine that I could have available to myself or any other professional to come to any other question. By your definition, mankind cannot test to prove the existence of god, so essentially I don't understand the need to even put such a creature in any equation that, by definition, he cannot be a part of. More to the point, it makes any such concept of god utterly pointless because a) there is no empirical evidence to support that such a high-order intelligence or organism exists in the universe or even that the universe is ordered in any way to support the idea that it is, in itself, an intelligence and b) given that there is zero evidence to support god's existence and his existence would have zero impact on anything in the universe at any point in time, why do you feel the need to waste your mental resources on a belief that is, essentially, completely meaningless?