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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 6, 2015 at 1:11 am
(January 2, 2015 at 11:25 am)Nope Wrote: Correct me if I am wrong? The purpose of free will is so that we can freely chose to love god.
Biblically speaking no one can nor will choose God (Romans 3:10-12, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2:1). If a person's free will cannot be used to choose to love God, it would therefore follow that the purpose of free will can not be so that we can freely choose to love God.
(January 2, 2015 at 11:25 am)Nope Wrote: Because the Christian god is so dazzlingly wonderful, if he physically introduced himself, we would automatically love him and he wants us to have the freedom to reject or accept him.
However, Lucifer lived in heaven and knew god but rejected him. So did several of the angels who followed Satan instead of god. What is true for angels may or may not be true for humans and vice versa. There are elect angels (1 Timothy 5:21) and angels who followed Lucifer in rebellion. Yet there is no salvation for the angels of rebellion (2 Peter 2:4). Therefore if the context of your argument is free will as it relates to salvation, then you have drawn a false analogy. Salvation applies only to humans, not to angels.
(January 2, 2015 at 11:25 am)Nope Wrote: There are incidents in the Old Testament of individuals talking to god. Was their free will to accept or reject god destroyed because of their direct observations of the Hebrew god.? God not only talked to Abraham, he debated with him the number of righteous people who would turn aside his anger against Sodom and Gomorrah. In Exodus chapter 33 it says that Moses spoke to god face to face
11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
My question is why is free will necessary only for modern people and not bronze aged nomads or the angels? Your conclusion that free will is necessary only for modern people and not bronze aged nomads or the angels is not properly argued for. Please revise your argument.
1. Free will exists so that we can freely choose to love God.
2. If God introduced Himself to us we would chose Him.
3. Lucifer knew God
4. Lucifer rejected God
5. Individuals in the old testament talked to God.
Therefore, free will is necessary only for modern people and not bronze aged nomads or the angels.
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists...
and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible...
would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?
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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 6, 2015 at 3:29 am
(January 5, 2015 at 12:32 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (January 5, 2015 at 9:58 am)whateverist Wrote: I think Satan is the Christian version of Prometheus. He is the one that encourages men to get off their knees and grow in independence. Sorry boss gods, but thanks to Satan/Prometheus, we got this now. Burn your own offerings. IDK, he doesn't seem interested in our independence, more of a grudge match with god. But..if I had to liken the medieval concept of satan to classical greek mythology I'd probably choose miasma over prometheus. I think that satan has, in recent times, been viewed more and more -as- a promethean figure, but I suspect that this has more to do with the resistance to christian asshatery than it does with the actual character itself.
I'm sure you're right. Leastwise I have no desire to find out for myself if that would involve reading the bible. I thank my lucky starts that I rid myself of religion without having read it and I don't intend to fuck with it now.
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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 6, 2015 at 11:00 am
(This post was last modified: January 6, 2015 at 11:02 am by IATIA.)
(January 6, 2015 at 1:11 am)orangebox21 Wrote: 1. Free will exists so that we can freely choose to love God.
2. If God introduced Himself to us we would chose Him.
3. Lucifer knew God
4. Lucifer rejected God
5. Individuals in the old testament talked to God.
Therefore, free will is necessary only for modern people and not bronze aged nomads or the angels. All references to 'seeing' god in the bible suggest that it was a man they were looking at. So, if that same 'man' walked up to you today .., ?
And those few that got the opportunity to go to 'heaven' were required to take drugs first.
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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 6, 2015 at 11:05 am
(January 6, 2015 at 11:00 am)IATIA Wrote: (January 6, 2015 at 1:11 am)orangebox21 Wrote: 1. Free will exists so that we can freely choose to love God.
2. If God introduced Himself to us we would chose Him.
3. Lucifer knew God
4. Lucifer rejected God
5. Individuals in the old testament talked to God.
Therefore, free will is necessary only for modern people and not bronze aged nomads or the angels. All references to 'seeing' god in the bible suggest that it was a man they were looking at. So, if that same 'man' walked up to you today .., ?
And those few that got the opportunity to go to 'heaven' were required to take drugs first.
Man proclaiming to be god and highly likely a con artist.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 6, 2015 at 11:41 am
(January 6, 2015 at 11:00 am)IATIA Wrote: (January 6, 2015 at 1:11 am)orangebox21 Wrote: 1. Free will exists so that we can freely choose to love God.
2. If God introduced Himself to us we would chose Him.
3. Lucifer knew God
4. Lucifer rejected God
5. Individuals in the old testament talked to God.
Therefore, free will is necessary only for modern people and not bronze aged nomads or the angels. All references to 'seeing' god in the bible suggest that it was a man they were looking at. So, if that same 'man' walked up to you today .., ?
And those few that got the opportunity to go to 'heaven' were required to take drugs first. In 1 Timothy 6:15-16 we learn that God resides in unapproachable light that no man has seen nor can seen (see also John 1:18 and John 6:46). If no man can see God, then who did people in the old testament see? There is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Only God the Son appeared in flesh. Therefore, they saw the pre-incarnate Christ (which is why it is suggested that it was a man they were looking at). That "same man" walked up to many people during His incarnation and yet many of those people who saw the Son in the flesh did not believe in Him. Therefore, if Christ in the flesh were to walk up to you today, that does not necessarily mean that you would believe in Him. Seeing is not necessarily believing.
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists...
and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible...
would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?
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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 6, 2015 at 11:49 am
(This post was last modified: January 6, 2015 at 11:53 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Seems like alot of fanfic in that post Orange. The ot jews saw god, full stop. The ot jews did not see god, full stop. There's no requirement of consistency because these are just narratives - not news reports from the front. Your extraneous jerrying with the narrative is an effect of your extraneous beliefs, not a problem with the narratives. They were not written with each other (or your beliefs) in mind.
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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 6, 2015 at 12:06 pm
(January 6, 2015 at 1:11 am)orangebox21 Wrote: 1. Free will exists so that we can freely choose to love God.
Fiat assertion. Citation needed.
(January 6, 2015 at 1:11 am)orangebox21 Wrote: 2. If God introduced Himself to us we would chose Him.
Fiat assertion. Non sequitur. Also your if is showing.
(January 6, 2015 at 1:11 am)orangebox21 Wrote: 3. Lucifer knew God
In the bible.
(January 6, 2015 at 1:11 am)orangebox21 Wrote: 4. Lucifer rejected God
In the bible.
(January 6, 2015 at 1:11 am)orangebox21 Wrote: 5. Individuals in the old testament talked to God.
In the bible.
(January 6, 2015 at 1:11 am)orangebox21 Wrote: Therefore, free will is necessary only for modern people and not bronze aged nomads or the angels.
Non sequitur. Fiat assertion. Total dependence on mythology without justification or foundation.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 6, 2015 at 1:16 pm
When does Vegeta arrive? That's always my favorite part.
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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 6, 2015 at 1:19 pm
(January 6, 2015 at 1:16 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: When does Vegeta arrive? That's always my favorite part.
We have to get all 7 dragon balls then summon goku back from the dead and then him and vegeta will fuse making gogeta and so ssj3 gogeta from that ssj4 and he will save everyone.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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RE: Free Will and Loving/Rejecting God
January 6, 2015 at 1:30 pm
(January 6, 2015 at 1:19 pm)dyresand Wrote: (January 6, 2015 at 1:16 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: When does Vegeta arrive? That's always my favorite part.
We have to get all 7 dragon balls then summon goku back from the dead and then him and vegeta will fuse making gogeta and so ssj3 gogeta from that ssj4 and he will save everyone.
...still more plausible than the Trinity.
"I was thirsty for everything, but blood wasn't my style" - Live, "Voodoo Lady"
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