Moral superiority: Seculars vs Religious

[Creed of Heresy]

So I was reading "Non-believer Nation" and the writer brought up a number of very good points about the correlation in national population percentages between secularity and religiosity in regards to crime. I knew about the studies in the US, but apparently it's not just in the US; the higher the ratios of secular individuals to religious individuals, the lower the rate of violent crimes, particularly murder and sexual assault.

This is a topic trail that we've walked many times before, or at least most of us have, but I'm interested in hearing what our resident theists have to say on the matter. I find myself wishing there were more around here for these kinds of conversations, believe it or not, largely because I'm interested in hearing the explanations of religious people as to how they feel about this. I'm not asking for refutations of the statistics; they exist, and the closest thing I can call absolute truth is that of numbers, and given how the statistical trends are always in favor of this outcome, my mind is all but concluded in the regards of whether or not this is a fact. I just wanna know what theists think about this.

If one says that "good wholesome Christian values" are a good strong moral backing, how does one explain how the less a national population adheres to those values, the lower the crime rates are?

If it went the other way around, that the more secularization of a population, the more violent the society, I personally would find myself hard-pressed to explain it other than to say "religion must provide peace of mind and culture," but such is not the case.

[Zenith]

...what our resident theists have to say on the matter. I find myself wishing there were more around here for these kinds of conversations

Perhaps you should also try a christian forum, non?

So I was reading "Non-believer Nation" and the writer brought up a number of very good points about the correlation in national population percentages between secularity and religiosity in regards to crime. I knew about the studies in the US, but apparently it's not just in the US; the higher the ratios of secular individuals to religious individuals, the lower the rate of violent crimes, particularly murder and sexual assault.

This is a topic trail that we've walked many times before, or at least most of us have, but I'm interested in hearing what our resident theists have to say on the matter. I find myself wishing there were more around here for these kinds of conversations, believe it or not, largely because I'm interested in hearing the explanations of religious people as to how they feel about this. I'm not asking for refutations of the statistics; they exist, and the closest thing I can call absolute truth is that of numbers, and given how the statistical trends are always in favor of this outcome, my mind is all but concluded in the regards of whether or not this is a fact. I just wanna know what theists think about this.

If one says that "good wholesome Christian values" are a good strong moral backing, how does one explain how the less a national population adheres to those values, the lower the crime rates are?

If it went the other way around, that the more secularization of a population, the more violent the society, I personally would find myself hard-pressed to explain it other than to say "religion must provide peace of mind and culture," but such is not the case.

I have my own philosophy regarding this. I live in a quite religious country, though I'm hoping in time it will become more secular.

All / most religions have the rather unusual attribute that they preach about great values that no one lives up to. For instance, within a church it is so 'fashionable' to talk about honesty, love, giving, etc. that it is almost a demand: it is how GOD demands you to be, therefore you have no choice but to ACT as if you are like that, so as to be accepted by the group. Many religious people, I believe, don't even realize that they're mere hypocrites. Besides, a lot of standards that are impossible for men to live up to turn into low self-esteem (they feel guilty before God), hating those who do not try to live up to those standards (e.g. atheists), and cause a twist of the priorities on moral issues: e.g. it is more important to go to the Church frequently and gaze upon the pictures of the saints than to actually be altruistic; it is more important to pray to God and show that you 'love' him by whatever rituals you do than being fair. Also, the religious leaders, being very much trusted by their followers are more likely to manipulate them and to use their money to fulfill their own dreams: expensive cars, big houses, churches covered in gold, etc. A country led by such religious leaders becomes poor, there remains less money for institutions (health, education, etc.) and backed up by a lot of people living in poverty, this leads to crimes. In countries where the Church / the religion can freely demand money from the state (from the people's taxes) and where the priests are being paid from state taxes, I'd say that religion practices a form of 'legal' corruption.

Secularists, on the other hand, do not have that many rules and impossible standards to live up to. No one asks or demands people to fake love or altruism or whatever. No church has such a great power, so the country can become prosperous and people can live decent lives and receive proper education. They do not feel forced to live in a certain way, so they don't live in frustrations and do not hate the 'others' for being different / freer.

[dyresand]

Secular morality is better i mean look at Sweden.
While here in the states..... where more of a prison industrial complex.

[robvalue]

Organised religion type morality is bullshit because:

1) It has nothing to do with wellbeing of individuals and society, except occasionally by coincidence

2) It is inflexible and unchanging

3) It deals in absolutes and barely allows for context, or competing moral decisions

4) To have any relevance today, the bulk of it gets arbitrarily ignored. Which parts get ignored? The parts the person interpreting it disagrees with. So what is left? Their own morals. Just they can find it easier to keep prejudiced opinions, while hiding behind scripture.

Whereas secular morality deals with reality, with actual wellbeing, is flexible and can improve. And it leaves no excuses for blatant prejudice.

[Creed of Heresy]

...what our resident theists have to say on the matter. I find myself wishing there were more around here for these kinds of conversations

Perhaps you should also try a christian forum, non?

Trust me, I have.

I was banned immediately after making the post on a couple. The reason given? "Inflammatory comments" for one. The other? No reason given whatsoever. Just a ban. That's it.

I posted this almost verbatim. My post was deleted, and I was permanently banned without warning.

And they have the fucking gall to bitch and piss and whine about getting banned here after a dozen warnings and rather fair, tolerant rules...

I have my own philosophy regarding this. I live in a quite religious country, though I'm hoping in time it will become more secular.

All / most religions have the rather unusual attribute that they preach about great values that no one lives up to. For instance, within a church it is so 'fashionable' to talk about honesty, love, giving, etc. that it is almost a demand: it is how GOD demands you to be, therefore you have no choice but to ACT as if you are like that, so as to be accepted by the group. Many religious people, I believe, don't even realize that they're mere hypocrites. Besides, a lot of standards that are impossible for men to live up to turn into low self-esteem (they feel guilty before God), hating those who do not try to live up to those standards (e.g. atheists), and cause a twist of the priorities on moral issues: e.g. it is more important to go to the Church frequently and gaze upon the pictures of the saints than to actually be altruistic; it is more important to pray to God and show that you 'love' him by whatever rituals you do than being fair. Also, the religious leaders, being very much trusted by their followers are more likely to manipulate them and to use their money to fulfill their own dreams: expensive cars, big houses, churches covered in gold, etc. A country led by such religious leaders becomes poor, there remains less money for institutions (health, education, etc.) and backed up by a lot of people living in poverty, this leads to crimes. In countries where the Church / the religion can freely demand money from the state (from the people's taxes) and where the priests are being paid from state taxes, I'd say that religion practices a form of 'legal' corruption.

Secularists, on the other hand, do not have that many rules and impossible standards to live up to. No one asks or demands people to fake love or altruism or whatever. No church has such a great power, so the country can become prosperous and people can live decent lives and receive proper education. They do not feel forced to live in a certain way, so they don't live in frustrations and do not hate the 'others' for being different / freer.

Excellent points, and I have no reason to doubt that any of what you said is true. Hypocrisy runs absurdly rampant amongst the religious, and few practice what they preach. Those that do, I appreciate their participation in society, but they're so genuinely few that the moment I hear someone "holds to Christian values" I tune the rest of what they have to say out because it's a pointless exercise in frustration and annoyance.

Personal liberty is remarkably enabling for good social moral values. This shouldn't be surprising; most people are inherently good. It's the input from the closest parts of the world around them that determines whether or not they stay good, or if they become twisted and spiteful. Or, some medium in between.

At least, that's the conclusion I've come to draw from it.

[Zenith]

Trust me, I have.

I was banned immediately after making the post on a couple. The reason given? "Inflammatory comments" for one. The other? No reason given whatsoever. Just a ban. That's it.

I posted this almost verbatim. My post was deleted, and I was permanently banned without warning.

And they have the fucking gall to bitch and piss and whine about getting banned here after a dozen warnings and rather fair, tolerant rules...

I personally find it a bit strange... I remember, years ago, when I used to frequent forums on religion, I had been talking on a christian orthodox forum, a jewish forum, but I was never banned. Well, it is true that back then I was a christian with heretical views and was debating with them, convinced that I saw the truth. And whenever an atheist came along, he acted like a know-it-all and was frustrated and / or arrogant. You know, many christians - muslims as well - are very sensitive beings on the matter of religion, e.g. you say smth bad about their god and they feel more insulted than if you posted photos of their mothers f*cking their neighbors all over the city.

I don't know how you asked and how things progressed from there, but a few suggestions that might be helpful:
- Try acting as if you're convinced that they have a good answer - one which preserves their good image.
- Try focusing on understanding as much as you can of how they view things, instead of making it look like a battle / debate.
- Be careful not to make them believe that you're trying to push your views upon them.
- It is a mistake to believe that they ought to answer your questions appropriately. They don't feel like they must - they 'know' that themselves are "right" and whether you want to hear or not what they 'know' is your problem.
- In the worst case, try pretending you're a disheartened christian bogged down by some questions, maybe they'll give an answer, perhaps among words like "most christians are not real christians"

For this particular question, their answer might simply be: "most christians are not real christians, for if they were then those countries would've become the top in both economic power and life conditions."

---

Btw,
For many people, their faith / religion is just like nationalism, or even ultranationalism: the very fact that they belong to the community makes them feel very special and absolutely sufficient, and whoever is not in their community they despise and hate.

Also, funny thing: In my country, some TV reporters had been asking villagers basic things about their faith, like "Who is Jesus Christ?" I am sure there were people with correct answers, but the funny ones were like "I don't know, leave me be!", "I don't know, the priest didn't tell us!", or "Uh, well, he's a saint of the Church!" Imagine that these are people that frequent the Church and look badly at anyone who doesn't do the same. Well, it is true that there are also villagers who don't know the name of their own country, but still...

[The Grand Nudger]

Eww....Zenith.....wtf?

- Try acting as if you're convinced that they have a good answer - one which preserves their good image.

If they don't have a good answer or a good image....there's no sense in pretending that they do. It helps no one.

- Try focusing on understanding as much as you can of how they view things, instead of making it look like a battle / debate.

Can't, makes me cringe....their view is inhuman and inhumane.

- Be careful not to make them believe that you're trying to push your views upon them.

This one is actually good...especially if you aren;t trying to push your views. Personally, I prefer to shame, rather than push.

- It is a mistake to believe that they ought to answer your questions appropriately. They don't feel like they must - they 'know' that themselves are "right" and whether you want to hear or not what they 'know' is your problem.

Well, they ought to, if they want a solid discussion. If they don't...then fuck em. That's not so much a mistake as a difference in goals. If they want a soapbox they don't need a partner for that, eh?

- In the worst case, try pretending you're a disheartened christian bogged down by some questions, maybe they'll give an answer, perhaps among words like "most christians are not real christians"

Lie to them? Why? Particularly here, where saying "You know...some christians believe that -x-" will perform precisely the same function.

[Zenith]

Rhythm, I'm not debating with you which way is "correct" or should be "appropriate"
If you join a christian forum, you can either play by their rules or get kicked out. If you wanna play "who's the smartest?" you can stay here.

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't think that they would appreciate lying, or consider lying to be "playing by the rules" Zenith. Pretty sure they'd call that trolling, actually.... If the rules say, in effect "We don't want to have this discussion/We won't allow this discussion" then you simply don't have the fucking discussion. Coming up with less-than-clever ways of circumventing that is bullshit, gets you banned here...would likely get a person banned anywhere. But you go ahead and advise people to bend other forums rules, to lie to people in discussion..and then pop off a snide remark if someone dares to suggest that maybe that's not good advice at all. Totally legit.

Good god, I hope no one takes your advice on this forum...because then I'd have to deal with all the reports and ban proposals.

[Zenith]

I don't think that they would appreciate lying, or consider lying to be "playing by the rules" Zenith. Pretty sure they'd call that trolling, actually....

That happens if they figure you out. But yes, it might be difficult to pretend well.

The bad part with showing off as an atheist in a christian forum should be prejudices like "Atheists refuse to believe because their sins are holding them back!" and "Deep inside they know the truth and that God is real!" which might hold them back from wanting to debate with you.

Besides, most people KNOW they know, so they don't wanna waste their time trying to understand what's holding you from accepting their truth.

If the rules say, in effect...

I believe those are unwritten and unspoken rules.