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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
January 31, 2015 at 5:38 pm
(January 31, 2015 at 1:36 pm)Godschild Wrote: Do you really think we could comprehend the process of creation. Sure. There would be multiple ways for it to be described. The Bible just uses generalizations, but why wouldn't god be able to explain how he did it?
Godschild Wrote:Yes you're right, God knows without being physically present, I'm not sure how that works being a spirit, whatever that in itself entails.
I do disagree about what sin is if you're applying your definition to all sin. God would never give approval for something that would separate one further from Him. I don't mean that god is "with you" when you sin, in the sense that he is okay with it. But he would know what you did, wouldn't he? You would not be able to hide from god. So in that sense he is ever-present, in that he would always know.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
February 1, 2015 at 11:21 am
(This post was last modified: February 1, 2015 at 11:31 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 31, 2015 at 12:37 am)Godschild Wrote: What kind of crazy crap have you dreamed up now, you are as delusional as they come.
GC ............okay? I'll have an order of cornbread. Hold the ceramics. 
Be prepared to own your own comments or keep them stuffed in your mouth, would be my advice.
Let me lay this out simply for you.
-If god is present in our future (for example.. is omni-present-), then that future - from some point of view- is already actualized. We are progressing towards it, it is determined.
-If god has knowledge of our future states (for example.....is omni-scient), then those future states -from some point of view- are already actualized. We are progressing towards them, they are predetermined.
Now sure, sure, you don't like the idea of "god" being the one determining this stuff...and that's okay....because it doesn't have to be god doing it for either of the above to hold. I don't mind allowing you that little comfort blanket : god's not doing shit...let alone predetermining things, granted...but this is irrelevant. The only relevant bit - regarding free will, is whether or not either can be done, by any means, regardless of who or what is doing it, or why it is that way, or how can be done.
What do you think, can "god" be there now, in the future. Does "god" know now, what the future holds?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
February 2, 2015 at 12:29 am
(This post was last modified: February 2, 2015 at 1:19 am by Godscreated.)
(January 31, 2015 at 5:38 pm)Tonus Wrote: (January 31, 2015 at 1:36 pm)Godschild Wrote: Do you really think we could comprehend the process of creation. Sure. There would be multiple ways for it to be described. The Bible just uses generalizations, but why wouldn't god be able to explain how he did it?
Do you really believe that we could understand how God brought physical things into being, out of nothing. I really do not believe that would be possible. It's questioned all the time, why, because we can't even imagine such a process.
Godschild Wrote:Yes you're right, God knows without being physically present, I'm not sure how that works being a spirit, whatever that in itself entails.
I do disagree about what sin is if you're applying your definition to all sin. God would never give approval for something that would separate one further from Him.
Quote:I don't mean that god is "with you" when you sin, in the sense that he is okay with it. But he would know what you did, wouldn't he? You would not be able to hide from god. So in that sense he is ever-present, in that he would always know.
Agree.
GC
(February 1, 2015 at 11:21 am)Rhythm Wrote: (January 31, 2015 at 12:37 am)Godschild Wrote: What kind of crazy crap have you dreamed up now, you are as delusional as they come.
GC ............okay? I'll have an order of cornbread. Hold the ceramics.
Be prepared to own your own comments or keep them stuffed in your mouth, would be my advice.
Let me lay this out simply for you.
-If god is present in our future (for example.. is omni-present-), then that future - from some point of view- is already actualized. We are progressing towards it, it is determined.
You'll never change will you, always the one to jump in and try to make others look less than yourself. It's called a defense mechanism, try to make others look stupid so the really stupid one looks bright. Well with the Christians here you're as tarnished as a old silver spoon.
Now to the actual material, actualized no, visualized yes. To be determined it would have to be planned out to the smallest detail by the one manipulating the actions. God does not do this, scripture makes it clear, the flood story shows God allows things to progress in man's free will.
Quote:-If god has knowledge of our future states (for example.....is omni-scient), then those future states -from some point of view- are already actualized. We are progressing towards them, they are predetermined.
Actualized no, visualized yes. To be determined it would have to be planned out to the smallest detail by the one manipulating the actions. God does not do this, the scriptures make it clear, the story of the Israelites shows God allows things to progress in man's free will.
Quote:Now sure, sure, you don't like the idea of "god" being the one determining this stuff...and that's okay....because it doesn't have to be god doing it for either of the above to hold. I don't mind allowing you that little comfort blanket : god's not doing shit...let alone predetermining things, granted...but this is irrelevant.
Who would like someone planning out their entire life, what reason would one have to grow, no decisions to be made, no reason to care. Just because you believe your false religion determines your every decision doesn't mean the rest of us have to accept such crap.
God says He has chosen national leaders, it's for reasons you would never accept, but nevertheless it's be done and will continue to happen to keep God's ultimate plan on track. But to predetermine everyone's life never.
Quote:What do you think, can "god" be there now, in the future. Does "god" know now, what the future holds?
God's seen what the future holds and has appeared into history to make sure His ultimate plan is carried out, but to plan and control our every move, no, never. Our lives are ours to live and to do so we have to have free will.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
February 2, 2015 at 6:42 am
(This post was last modified: February 2, 2015 at 6:43 am by robvalue.)
Cool. God doesn't know what we are going to do. He doesn't know everything. He only knows some things. He gives us free will so we can surprise him. But he probably doesn't give us very much room to wiggle, since he's planned out what he thinks are important events and is going to shoe-horn us into them regardless.
I'm glad we got that sorted out!
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Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
February 2, 2015 at 8:46 am
Free will is a matter of perspective. If someone had the ability to travel to the end of time and document everything that happened then from that perspective "free will" would not exist.
However, if the ability to look into the future was impossible then "free will" does exist.
Since the Past and the Future are both constructs of the mind and do not actually exist, I conclude that "free will" does exist.
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
February 2, 2015 at 8:50 am
(This post was last modified: February 2, 2015 at 9:04 am by robvalue.)
An illusion upon an ilusion. I'm being conned in the most fundamental ways possible. And I have to stand here and take it up the arse all day. What choice do I have?
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
February 2, 2015 at 9:01 am
(February 2, 2015 at 12:29 am)Godschild Wrote: (January 31, 2015 at 5:38 pm)Tonus Wrote: Sure. There would be multiple ways for it to be described. The Bible just uses generalizations, but why wouldn't god be able to explain how he did it? Do you really believe that we could understand how God brought physical things into being, out of nothing. I really do not believe that would be possible. It's questioned all the time, why, because we can't even imagine such a process. Physicists have managed to learn some pretty complicated things that probably seem impossible for the layperson to understand. We can understand complex processes if we learn in steps. I don't see why god could not explain it to us in a way we could understand. I think it would be fascinating to understand how supernatural power works, even if it means going outside of the natural universe and learning about a whole new dimension of physics.
If god exists, then the things he does have to make sense on some level. And if they make sense, we can understand them, IMO.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
February 2, 2015 at 9:04 am
How did you do that God?
Ididit lol!
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
February 2, 2015 at 9:07 am
(This post was last modified: February 2, 2015 at 9:24 am by h4ym4n.)
(February 2, 2015 at 12:29 am)Godschild Wrote: God's seen what the future holds and has appeared into history to make sure His ultimate plan is carried out, but to plan and control our every move, no, never. Our lives are ours to live and to do so we have to have free will.
GC
So GC, I'm in line with gods ultimate plan. It planned on me not receiving the evidence for its existence. It planned on my eternal afterlife of punishment. it planned on you receiving all the proof you need to live and die according to its "ultimate plan".
Does God, at this very moment and according to its master plan, know where I will be spending my afterlife, heaven or hell?
Can I change its decision/master plan?
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RE: Does Free Will actually exist? Is there a way to tell?
February 2, 2015 at 9:10 am
YES AND NO GOD ALWAYS WINS1111!!!!
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