The argument against God

[dagda]

It came to me as I was sitting around. I havn't really ever heard a really convincing argument against the existence of a god. I was intreaged and thought the best place to come in my search was an atheist forum. So, anyone got any good ones?

By the way, I do belive in a god, just keeping an open mind.

[LukeMC]

The Christian God, yes? Firstly, you'll have to tell us about your god. Otherwise, we won't know what we're arguing against (as in: is he a bearded man who sends people to heaven and hell? Is he a spirit or ghost? Does he intervene with human affairs? etc)

[Demonaura]

Would you also like an argument against fuzzy pink unicorns, giant spaceborne teapots and aliens from the moon?

The fact is theres no testable anything on anything about anyting that would suggest there is a god of any kind. Or any of the above for that matter. Theres no reason to conclude there even might be one, we do it because we WANT there to be a god. Well I want superpowers too, don't make em real.

Btw that is my argument against god there, so if it sounds like I'm being an ass it's just for show lol.

[Eilonnwy]

It came to me as I was sitting around. I havn't really ever heard a really convincing argument against the existence of a god. I was intreaged and thought the best place to come in my search was an atheist forum. So, anyone got any good ones?

By the way, I do belive in a god, just keeping an open mind.

First and foremost we need to clarify two issues, one is the god you're proposing we argue against (because the definitions change depending on the person), and the other is what atheism really is so you can grasp where some people are coming from.

If you believe in an ethereal "God is love", a supernatural ethereal being beyond our knowledge, then honestly it's pretty hard, in fact probably impossible to argue against it becuase you've essentially definied it to be something that goes beyond our knowledge and how can we argue for or against such a god? The definition is meaningless so I throw it out.

If you're talking about a god who created the world in 6 days, and answers prayers, sent down his son to be crucified God (Or didn't and you're still waiting for that messiah....or think Jesus was a prophet and Muhammed is the guy to go by) we can have a meaningful discussion about the topic.

Let's also clarify that atheism is a lack of believe in god. You do not need to have proof against god to not believe in god. You just need to not accept the claim there is a god. For example if you say you have an invisible fairy on your shoulder the default position is to not accept the claim that that you have that said fairy. You have no proof for the fairy, and even though I can't disprove it (because it's invisible) I'm still not going to accept the claim and reasonably say that it's not there until such time as the fairy demonstrates it's presence. Substitute fairy for God and you have weak atheism or agnostic atheism where you don't know, but you stick with the natural default position of until you prove it, I'm not believing. (That takes care of the ethereal supernatural nonsense of the first definition of god.)

Then there's strong atheism where you asset there is no god. I am strong atheist in the since that I believe/know to the degree I can possibly know anything, that there is no God and I apply that believe or know that there is no Abrahamic or Judeo-Christian God (Or Greek Pantheon, Norse Gods, etc...) A God of the bible so to speak. An interveneing, answers prayers, you go to heaven, created the world in 6 days kind of god. If we want to use analogies again, we're can compare it to saying you have 10 dollars in your wallet. You can prove you have ten dollars in your wallet because there are testable physical attributes about those ten dollars. I'm going to mention some stuff off hand because it's impossible to get down and dirty without writing a book (But I'm going to suggest one afterwards)

We have tested prayer and studies have shown it has no scientifically sustainable results. Everytime prayer has been tested it has failed. You can go find those studies. Similarly, an intercessory god violates the free will hypothesis becuase the instant god intercedes on someone's behalf they violate free will.

How about created the world in 6 days? Evolution destroys that attribute.

How about Jesus? There are no contemporary proofs of Jesus. There is nothing outside the bible and gnostic gospels that talk about Jesus and they were written at least 40 years after his supposed death. Oh and don't forget that Jesus existed to forgive the sins of two imaginary people (Adam and Eve) who ate forbidden fruit from a tree thanks to a talking snake (ANd God actually said the tree would kill them, the snake said it would give them knowledge...wow the snake actually told the truth) and because of that sin we were all denied heaven, so our omnipresent god (who should have seen this shit coming) decided to send his son down (Who is really him) as a human to be brutally sacrificed (Because God lieks the scent of blood) to create a loophole in the rules that he created so we would be forgiven sins we actually didn't committ and have good reason to believe Adam and Eve never existed anyway. Wow, sounds awesome.

The bible is full of amazing contradictions.

How about an afterlife? There is no scientific proof that any afterlife exists. Near death experiences can be explained by reactions of dying brain. (All near death experiences surprisingly correlate with the religion of the person experiencing it, hmmm)

Science practically destroys any notion of that God, and the information is everywhere if you look ahrd enough. I couldn't possibly provide all the evidence because even I don't know everything and I don't have the time to do so.

This forums book club is going to read Victor Stenger's God: The Failed Hypothesis for February. I've heard lot's of reviews about it, the book essentially focuses on how science destroys the notion of God, so if you're genuinely interested in arguments against god, pick up a copy.
-_^

I hope you don't think I'm being to glib in my answer, because it's a simple question with a gargantuan answer that honestly depends on your definition of god. Just remember that an atheist DOESN'T actually have to provide proof for a god. Their position is a logical default position of negative until proven otherwise. (And unless you're really gullible, I'm sure you naturally apply that logic to a lot of other things like maybe UFO sightings or bigfoot) If you postulate a god theory you HAVE to substiant it with proof. So let me ask you, what are your arguments for god?

[josef rosenkranz]

It came to me as I was sitting around. I havn't really ever heard a really convincing argument against the existence of a god. I was intreaged and thought the best place to come in my search was an atheist forum. So, anyone got any good ones?

By the way, I do belive in a god, just keeping an open mind.

You have entered by your own will in a pit of hungry atheists which were awaiting just for guys like you in order to eat you alive from head to toe. lol
You are going to hear a lot of anti God proofs each of them in another style and form.
Here is my version (fairly not accepted by all as convincing) and it is up to you to judge it.
First of all a blasphemy question as seen by all God believers:who
created God?
The answer God existed forever will be followed by a second question : where from do you know this? To this your answer cannot be but it is written so in Holly Scriptures-the Bible if you are a Christian.
Who wrote the Bible ?
The answer ,if you are really open minded, is that he Bible was written by man.
The inevitable conclusion is that God is a creation of man.
Now the motives of the creation by man of supranatural forces in the past of humankind is an issue that can be discussed for long hours and days. In my opinion if you'll be convinced by that or by the reasonable arguments of the existence of life and of the whole of the universe without any need of a God is important but still not decisive.
In my opinion God is created by every believer in his mind just the moment he thinks of him.He "sees " then God in his own humanly image as he learned about him from the very moment his parents or teachers spoke about him.
This "creation" of God in the mind of people is a result of a need planted in their counscience by the society which up till now is dominated by a majority of God believers.
It is an implant which the majority of men is not aware of and they think that addressing God is an intrinsec need of humanity in their search for the meaning of life on earth or of the universe as a whole.
In fact as you with patience will come to know science in which we atheist believe has the prooves of the appearance and development of life on earth on the basis of laws of nature where it is no need for any supranatural forces.
True there are still many unanswered questions.Science knows a lot about how the universe ticks but knows next to nothing why it ticks so.
The answer given by religion that God knows all about the world he has created brings us back to the primary question put in this reply.
It needs a fairly amount of open mindness and even of courage in order to come out in the open and to declare yourself as an atheist.

[lukec]

How about Jesus? There are no contemporary proofs of Jesus. There is nothing outside the bible and gnostic gospels that talk about Jesus and they were written at least 40 years after his supposed death. Oh and don't forget that Jesus existed to forgive the sins of two imaginary people (Adam and Eve) who ate forbidden fruit from a tree thanks to a talking snake (ANd God actually said the tree would kill them, the snake said it would give them knowledge...wow the snake actually told the truth) and because of that sin we were all denied heaven, so our omnipresent god (who should have seen this shit coming) decided to send his son down (Who is really him) as a human to be brutally sacrificed (Because God lieks the scent of blood) to create a loophole in the rules that he created so we would be forgiven sins we actually didn't committ and have good reason to believe Adam and Eve never existed anyway. Wow, sounds awesome.

Hahaha, bang on post Eilonnwy. I could not agree more, and not just with this quote. Well done.

[dagda]

Perhaps I should clarify my thoughts on god (as LukeMC suggests). My belife is very complex and time consuming to explain hence I will simplify and minimalise as best I can.

Outwith space-time there is a source. The Tao if you will. This is the source of all that exists and all that does not (as things outwith space-time don't exist in any way that would be familure to the material world). Whether this Tao has any concious thought is beond me.
Anyway, from the source sprung Aeons. The closest comparison would be angels, I suppose, but not quite. One of these Aeons we can call Sophia. She created the material world (for what reason I do not know-perhaps a mistake or a well meaning experiment?) and the Hebrew God to watch over it (who we shall name Ildaboath).

The Ildaboath formed the material world into what we would know it as (although I think Eden may be symbolic of this creation rather than a litteral truth). He is not evil, per say, but actually thinks he is the one true God. He is imperfect and arogant and in his creation of the world and humanity in particular, this rubbed off (he has the same flaws as humanity, just more powerful).
The aim of humanity should be to escape the material world and the Aeons (or some of them, at leasr) have been attenpting to aid us in this quest at various times (serpent in Eden, Christ ect). However, we must not put all our hopes in the Aeons, we must escape on our own steam for the most part.

I could back all this up with textual evidence from the bible but I feel this would bore you all.

[Darwinian]

I could back all this up with textual evidence from the bible but I feel this would bore you all.

And of course it wouldn't be evidence. At least, not in the way that I define the word.

My basic questions would be..

Why do you believe this is true.

What evidence do you have to support this theory? Apart from the Bible which I think we can establish is simply mythology.

[Eilonnwy]

Perhaps I should clarify my thoughts on god (as LukeMC suggests). My belife is very complex and time consuming to explain hence I will simplify and minimalise as best I can.

Outwith space-time there is a source. The Tao if you will. This is the source of all that exists and all that does not (as things outwith space-time don't exist in any way that would be familure to the material world). Whether this Tao has any concious thought is beond me.
Anyway, from the source sprung Aeons. The closest comparison would be angels, I suppose, but not quite. One of these Aeons we can call Sophia. She created the material world (for what reason I do not know-perhaps a mistake or a well meaning experiment?) and the Hebrew God to watch over it (who we shall name Ildaboath).

The Ildaboath formed the material world into what we would know it as (although I think Eden may be symbolic of this creation rather than a litteral truth). He is not evil, per say, but actually thinks he is the one true God. He is imperfect and arogant and in his creation of the world and humanity in particular, this rubbed off (he has the same flaws as humanity, just more powerful).
The aim of humanity should be to escape the material world and the Aeons (or some of them, at leasr) have been attenpting to aid us in this quest at various times (serpent in Eden, Christ ect). However, we must not put all our hopes in the Aeons, we must escape on our own steam for the most part.

I could back all this up with textual evidence from the bible but I feel this would bore you all.

That's a nice little myth there, but that's all it is. Until you can verify that it is more than your imagination that is all it is to anyone else and we don't have disprove your belief.

The bible is not and never will be evidence. It's is a book that is written by hundreds of different anonymous writers where the stories have been edited, forged, smooshed together, etc... It contradicts itself, promotes atrocities, and has historical inaccuracies, and has pretty much no corroborating evidence for it's claims like the great flood, Jesus, etc... All the bible does is tell boring stories and claims it's from God. I'm sorry but the bible saying it's the word of god and you believing it because it says so is circular theory. And anyone can use the bible to back up whatever belief they hold, so it's not evidence in the slightest.

[DD_8630]

Perhaps I should clarify my thoughts on god (as LukeMC suggests). My belife is very complex and time consuming to explain hence I will simplify and minimalise as best I can.

Outwith space-time there is a source. The Tao if you will. This is the source of all that exists and all that does not (as things outwith space-time don't exist in any way that would be familure to the material world). Whether this Tao has any concious thought is beond me.
Anyway, from the source sprung Aeons. The closest comparison would be angels, I suppose, but not quite. One of these Aeons we can call Sophia. She created the material world (for what reason I do not know-perhaps a mistake or a well meaning experiment?) and the Hebrew God to watch over it (who we shall name Ildaboath).

The Ildaboath formed the material world into what we would know it as (although I think Eden may be symbolic of this creation rather than a litteral truth). He is not evil, per say, but actually thinks he is the one true God. He is imperfect and arogant and in his creation of the world and humanity in particular, this rubbed off (he has the same flaws as humanity, just more powerful).
The aim of humanity should be to escape the material world and the Aeons (or some of them, at leasr) have been attenpting to aid us in this quest at various times (serpent in Eden, Christ ect). However, we must not put all our hopes in the Aeons, we must escape on our own steam for the most part.

I could back all this up with textual evidence from the bible but I feel this would bore you all.

It's not that it's boring, but rather that it's useless: the Bible is no more justification than Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone. If you could give us reason to believe that the Bible (or, at least, the relevant parts) is accurate, then that's a different story.

So, my question is: why do you believe the Bible to be anything other than the collective myths of Bronze-age nomads? Why do you believe the Bible and not, say, the Qu'ran, or the Vedic texts, or the Kitab-i-Aqdas?