Argument for atheism from necessary evil

[Ace Otana]

You have stuff Ace that has a negative effect on your confidence. Being saved is to enable you to fulfil your potential.

Could you list them old chap? What negative effect?

If I have a problem/negative effect on my life, I overcome it through work and determination. Something prayer has never done.
Can you explain how being "saved" enables you to fulfil your potential?

should you wish to accept the forgiveness.

Last I checked, I haven't done any wrongs. Maybe little ones like swearing, stealing a toy car when I was five or hitting an arshole for bullying my friends. Hardly something to go to hell for.
What point is there to "accept forgiveness" if you haven't done anything wrong? My reasoning is sound but your god's.....well the same can't be said for his reasoning.

[Entropist]

Last I checked, I haven't done any wrongs. Maybe little ones like swearing, stealing a toy car when I was five or hitting an arshole for bullying my friends. Hardly something to go to hell for.

According to the Bible, it is. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of Yahweh" yada yada yada...

[Edwardo Piet]

We're born sinful because our non-existent ancestors (Adam and Eve) did absolutely fuck all because they don't exist. God deliberately did not set up their non-existent selves to not steal some fruit from a non-existent tree. And so because of that we were determined to be "sinners" by his most immorally majestic non-existent sky-daddy self.

Makes perfect sense.

[fr0d0]

You have stuff Ace that has a negative effect on your confidence. Being saved is to enable you to fulfil your potential.

Could you list them old chap? What negative effect?

If I have a problem/negative effect on my life, I overcome it through work and determination. Something prayer has never done.
Can you explain how being "saved" enables you to fulfil your potential?

You're born imperfect/ none of us are perfect. Ace: meet Adam & Eve. Sure we all try our best. Humans throughout history have realised their shortcomings when compared to perfection, hence the need to wipe out bad stuff we do. Learning to live with the imperfection is a way of dealing with it too. "We're perfect in our imperfection". So called primitives kill chickens/ deny themselves something to make it better. You get the picture I hope. People find ways of blotting it out too. Currently we can be so overstimulated we can avoid thinking about stuff. So... with the problem being turned around by the bad stuff being wiped out for you and you just having to accept that - is what being saved means.

should you wish to accept the forgiveness.

Last I checked, I haven't done any wrongs. Maybe little ones like swearing, stealing a toy car when I was five or hitting an arshole for bullying my friends. Hardly something to go to hell for.
What point is there to "accept forgiveness" if you haven't done anything wrong? My reasoning is sound but your god's.....well the same can't be said for his reasoning.

Hell is what's happening to you now if you carry around guilt/ stop yourself from fulfilling your potential.

[Ace Otana]

You're born imperfect/ none of us are perfect.

True, none of us are perfect, but I'm not aiming for perfection.

Ace: meet Adam & Eve.

Evidence of their existance would do lovely.

hence the need to wipe out bad stuff we do.

I don't believe you can wipe out bad things althogether but make up for it later on. You can over come many bad things in life but the many good things you do. Falling to your knees and hoping your invisible friend will solve your problems won't do anything.

Learning to live with the imperfection is a way of dealing with it too.

I never think about imperfection or perfection. All that comes to my mind, is what I should do with the time I have. I do not strive for any afterlife, perfection, endless peace....ect. Because I know I cannot archive any of these. That doesn't mean I can't become more than I am and live my life to the full.

So... with the problem being turned around by the bad stuff being wiped out for you and you just having to accept that - is what being saved means.

I can take care of all the "bad stuff" in my life all on my own. Does this mean I am more capable than you because I don't need some kind of religion/god to do it for me?
I accept the bad side of things and overcome them. I don't need to be saved from anything.

Hell is what's happening to you now if you carry around guilt/ stop yourself from fulfilling your potential.

Don't believe in hell.
I'm not carrying around any guilt. Also I don't see how I'm "stopping myself" from fulfilling my potential. I've done many things in life which some people would envy. I've piloted aircrafts, had oral sex with many girls, been on some old warships, out witted teachers when they tried to get me into detention, out ran everyone in high school, climbed small mountins in north wales..ect. I could go on and on. Yet I'm only 21 and still have many years yet to live. Where am I stopping myself from living to the full? I think I'm doing pretty well.

[Ace Otana]

According to the Bible, it is. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of Yahweh" yada yada yada...

It makes no sense at all.
I mean, we never asked to exist and when we do come into existance we are already classed as bad and due to go to hell before we're able to do anything and then we are expected to apologise for being who we are and to follow idiot rules laid down by some prat(god). Which makes no sense at all and that if we poses certain thoughts or lack therof we end up going to hell for ever and ever and ever with endless torture for it. Some how infinite torture for a finite victemless crime makes sense to god????

Religion makes no sense at all! It only makes sense to those who already believe in it.

[Captain Scarlet]

According to the Bible, it is. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of Yahweh" yada yada yada...

It makes no sense at all.
I mean, we never asked to exist and when we do come into existance we are already classed as bad and due to go to hell before we're able to do anything and then we are expected to apologise for being who we are and to follow idiot rules laid down by some prat(god). Which makes no sense at all and that if we poses certain thoughts or lack therof we end up going to hell for ever and ever and ever with endless torture for it. Some how infinite torture for a finite victemless crime makes sense to god????

Religion makes no sense at all! It only makes sense to those who already believe in it.

Fulke Greville summarised this in 6 words: "Created sick — Commanded to be well". All monotheisms share this bizarre masochistic tendancy.

[fr0d0]

You're born imperfect/ none of us are perfect.

True, none of us are perfect, but I'm not aiming for perfection.

Ace: meet Adam & Eve.

Evidence of their existance would do lovely.

Erm... they're fictitious characters Ace

hence the need to wipe out bad stuff we do.

I don't believe you can wipe out bad things althogether but make up for it later on. You can over come many bad things in life but the many good things you do. Falling to your knees and hoping your invisible friend will solve your problems won't do anything.

I wasn't talking about the effectiveness but the desire. Sure, that's another form of sacrifice > paying back. See how you're doing what it's natural for people to do? Sure action speaks louder than words. I would think that action is more important in the majority of cases. You can't know that prayer is ineffective.

Learning to live with the imperfection is a way of dealing with it too.

I never think about imperfection or perfection. All that comes to my mind, is what I should do with the time I have. I do not strive for any afterlife, perfection, endless peace....ect. Because I know I cannot archive any of these. That doesn't mean I can't become more than I am and live my life to the full.

To aim for something you need a goal. Resigning yourself to failure is hardly inspirational. Because we want better, as you acknowledge, we strive for it > religion.

So... with the problem being turned around by the bad stuff being wiped out for you and you just having to accept that - is what being saved means.

I can take care of all the "bad stuff" in my life all on my own. Does this mean I am more capable than you because I don't need some kind of religion/god to do it for me?
I accept the bad side of things and overcome them. I don't need to be saved from anything.

You clearly don't because you already said you're ok with a lower standard. You deal with it by realising your inability and learning to live with that. God doesn't do it for you, it's your own choice to work with the flow or against it. Like an ignorant adolescent, you can choose defiance.

Hell is what's happening to you now if you carry around guilt/ stop yourself from fulfilling your potential.

Don't believe in hell.
I'm not carrying around any guilt. Also I don't see how I'm "stopping myself" from fulfilling my potential. I've done many things in life which some people would envy. I've piloted aircrafts, had oral sex with many girls, been on some old warships, out witted teachers when they tried to get me into detention, out ran everyone in high school, climbed small mountins in north wales..ect. I could go on and on. Yet I'm only 21 and still have many years yet to live. Where am I stopping myself from living to the full? I think I'm doing pretty well.

You don't care about pollution? About the feelings of those girls rather than referring to them as sex objects? The sadness of war? Justice? People who lost those races? (kudos for Wales ).

[Ace Otana]

Erm... they're fictitious characters Ace

Not all christians would agree.

You can't know that prayer is ineffective.

True, I cannot know. However, there is no evidence to prove that prayer works. So I have rejected the idea as nothing more than superstitious mumbo-jumbo(bullshit in other words).

To aim for something you need a goal. Resigning yourself to failure is hardly inspirational. Because we want better, as you acknowledge, we strive for it > religion.

I already have a goal. Which is to live as long and happily as possible. To do as much as I can with my limited existance. I haven't resigned myself to failer. As you haven't assured yourself success through belief in god. I strive for better but I can't see how religion can be that "better". It's a waste of time to me. Live it now and loud! That is my goal.

You clearly don't because you already said you're ok with a lower standard.

I don't remember saying that. I don't believe I've opted for a "lower standard". Just because I don't believe in god doesn't mean my standards are any lower than anyone else's.

You deal with it by realising your inability and learning to live with that.

I deal with the problems I have with sheer work and determination. I over come them. I do lack some ability to remove some problems but that doesn't stop me from trying. Even you must have problems that cannot easily be removed. We all have them.

God doesn't do it for you, it's your own choice to work with the flow or against it.

Can't follow god if I don't believe in such a thing.
I don't ask some invisible friend in the sky to "save" me from problems because I don't believe in any of it. It's not about what I choose to follow/believe but what I can do with the time and energy that I have.

You don't care about pollution? About the feelings of those girls rather than referring to them as sex objects? The sadness of war? Justice? People who lost those races? (kudos for Wales ).

I care about pollution but It's beyond my control. The girls I have a little fun with do things to me even though I never asked them too. I couldn't flirt with a girl if I knew she wasn't comfortable. Peoples feelings (especially girls) I care a great deal about.
Thing is, I've never laid a finger on any of them. They pin me down and....teach me a lesson sort of thing.... I mean, I do have a good few girl-friends. It's just a number of them become a little horny and find me somewhat...attractive. A 30 year old women even eyed me up last week.
I can't stand war but like most people, I cannot stop it. I care about justice but that is something out of my control. I care like anyone would. Being an atheist doesn't mean I am without a life, or sex(heck no ), care, love, passion and goals. Being an atheist simply means I don't believe in god. That is all it is. I don't turn to religion/god for help because I'm not religious. I don't believe in god and so you can see why I don't see the point in being "saved". It's because from my point of view, there is no god, no afterlife nothing superstitious at all. Just me, my limited existance, my time and energy and my ability to choose what to do with it.

Oh and the mountins in wales that I climbed wearn't all that big. I destroyed my legs getting up there mind you, took three days before I could use them properly again. Great week that was.

[fr0d0]

In my opinion you are simply lacking in knowledge of what religion offers Ace. You pick and choose what you want from it, and then deride it.