Opinions on my drive to be an atheist

[downbeatplumb]

The idea of having a difficult time deciding to believe in invisible, undetectable woo for the sake of the benefits seems whack to me.  

There you have it. I don't understand "deciding" to be atheist. I don't have faith, and I see no evidence; so for me, it is not a decision to make anymore than I decide to accept gravity as a fact.

Agreed, I didn't decide to not believe in god, I just don't.

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't understand why I have to keep repeating the fact that I am not saying being a JW is the protection. The point I was making about my brother is that he ignored his "indoctrination" and he suffered the consequences. 

(b-mine)
You have to keep saying it, because you keep implying it...as you just did....in bold - as though there is a connection between following his indoctrination and avoiding (or falling prey to) said "consequences" -beyond the implication made, by you...understand?  

Perhaps his poor life decisions -are- the consequences of his indoctrination......JW's aren't exactly "well equipped for life", in my experience. Imaginary friend believing sheeple, or somesuch. Having never been a JW, or a believer, myself...it's difficult to imagine how I would cope with the loss of both my childhood worldview, and the full support of family and friends. I know this, though, the thought makes hookers and blow sound pretty damned nice. Course, there's always that, perhaps your bro just likes hookers and blow? Maybe he'd have a thing for hookers and blow if he remained a JW (as plenty of other JW do.....they're still human, after all - I think....)?

The effect you point to may have nothing -at all- to do with his indoctrination, given the nature of the claim it's pretty much wide open...............but I do understand why a person with your history might make such assumptions....

(we see "those people", btw, because they are the most obvious examples of their faith..some might even say that they are the most faithful, they also tend to have trouble keeping their mouths shut about it. )

[Won2blv]

I don't understand why I have to keep repeating the fact that I am not saying being a JW is the protection. The point I was making about my brother is that he ignored his "indoctrination" and he suffered the consequences. 

(b-mine)
You have to keep saying it, because you keep implying it...as you just did....in bold - as though there is a connection between following his indoctrination and avoiding (or falling prey to) said "consequences" -beyond the implication made, by you...understand?  

Perhaps his poor life decisions -are- the consequences of his indoctrination......JW's aren't exactly "well equipped for life", in my experience.  Imaginary friend believing sheeple, or somesuch.  Having never been a JW, or a believer, myself...it's difficult to imagine how I would cope with the loss of both my childhood worldview, and the full support of family and friends.  I know this, though, the thought makes hookers and blow sound pretty damned nice.  Course, there's always that, perhaps your bro just likes hookers and blow?  Maybe he'd have a thing for hookers and blow if he remained a JW (as plenty of other JW do.....they're still human, after all - I think....)?  

The effect you point to may have nothing -at all- to do with his indoctrination, given the nature of the claim it's pretty much wide open...............but I do understand why a person with your history might make such assumptions....

(we see "those people", btw, because they are the most obvious examples of their faith..some might even say that they are the most faithful, they also tend to have trouble keeping their mouths shut about it. )

Isn't the meaning of the word consequence simply the result of an action? So yeah, my brother suffered the bad consequences for not following CERTAIN JW principles. Am I implying that this is the proof that they're the true religion? No, not at all. I do believe there are probably some JW's that live double lives but I also think that the religion is attractive to certain kinds of personalities. So most witnesses in my opinion are probably earnest. My brother has issues that go beyond god and religion. I have never even implied that our religion was a talisman for his protection. I am only simply saying that you can nail down some of his biggest mistakes and say, if he had followed his scriptural principles then they could have been avoided. You say that in your experience witnesses aren't equipped for life? What can you base that on? That is about as broad as me saying that my experience with atheist is that they go crazy after smoking too much weed. My brother is one tiny sampling size

[robvalue]

Sure, there are (almost) always going to be some principles in any given belief system which are objectively pretty good advice. So following them, whether you subscribe to that believe system or not, is a good idea.

I don't agree that never getting divorced is a good rule, but I do believe divorce should be a last resort. That's a typical problem with religion, it gives all or nothing rules. Aiming to not get divorced is good, trying everything you reasonably can to make it work is good, giving it time is good... but staying in a marriage that is making at least one person unhappy, after all those things have been thoroughly explored, is not good. In my opinion.

[ignoramus]

I am not one of those theists that think atheists are godless heathens.

Wait, what?

He meant to say we're just heathens (I think)

[Mudhammam]

It's sad that people fear accountability to an imaginary tyrant more than they do a self-conscience informed by well-reasoned principles and basic human decency.

[Cato]

Around 4:20 of his lecture he says somewhere along the lines of, "some people say that you want to be an atheist just so you can sin... screw that, its ok if you don't want to believe just to sin"

Not saying he speaks for atheists. But I can honestly say that the biggest reason I want to de-convert, is that I want to I do want to "sin." Sin according to what? According to god. If I was already an atheist my whole life then as a human I should do everything in my power to still hold up my vows I made to my wife but if its not going to work then its not going to work. But getting a divorce in that situation would have one less layer of complication. 

What you're missing in Dillahunty's argument is that the Christian notion of sin is in many cases immoral because it contradicts human nature. He was pretty clear about this, how did you miss that? Abandoning sin does not mean you now magically join an amoral free for all. The idea of sin was conjured up as a means of crowd control, it is only real to the extent that you believe it is. With all other aspects of divorce considered, you likely have significant psychological issues if you think the Christian notion of sin adds any significant complexity to the situation.

You're not the first schmuck to want to end a marriage simply because you want to get your dick wet somewhere else. Your children will one day be very proud of you I'm sure, not to mention the great example you will be setting. How old are your children? I am in no position to tell someone to stay in a loveless relationship; however, unless there is some type of demonstrated abuse I don't usually condone divorce until children are grown and gone. I love how you profess your love for your wife and kids, yet their welfare and needs are secondary concerns compared to where you want to put your prick. Perhaps you should divorce them. I can only hope the state will see to it that you will continue to adequately provide for them materially. Perhaps then there will be another man that will love them more and take the responsibilities of husband and father seriously.

[Cyberman]

For some reason I can't see the video. When Matt says "something along the lines of" that quote, can someone please tell me what he actually says? I'd like to compare it to the paraphrase.

[Tonus]

It's sad that people fear accountability to an imaginary tyrant more than they do a self-conscience informed by well-reasoned principles and basic human decency.

I think it's because of how our brains work.  We're wired to want to know.  Those early humans (or pre-humans, if you will) who made sure of their circumstances and surroundings were more likely to survive than the ones who "didn't think it was important" to find out what made that nearby sound.

Combine that with indoctrination that encompasses more than just a single religion or religious group: a JW may be a minority of sorts in his community based on his particular subset of beliefs, but he is (at least in the USA) in the clear majority in believing that there is a god, and that it happens to be Yahweh.  There may be differences of opinion in regards to the details, but there's no question about the existence of Yahweh.  Even before you add the threat of ostracism (not just from your fellow church members, but your community) that's a pretty big hurdle to overcome.  The threat of ostracism (or, in some of the more fanatical regions, direct action including violence) makes it so that even those who break free from the belief system are likely to pretend to fit in just to avoid persecution.

I believe that we absorb cues, both subtle and overt, from our surroundings constantly, and that these help shape our worldview.  A community and society that continues to push for belief in god will influence us continually to either believe in it, or to accept that it's for the better for that belief to exist or flourish.  It's how bad ideas can nonetheless persist in the face of new knowledge and better understanding.  Religion is just one of the ways we see that effect; racism and sexism are, IMO, also affected by this 'cultural subliminal messaging.'

[pocaracas]

For some reason I can't see the video. When Matt says "something along the lines of" that quote, can someone please tell me what he actually says? I'd like to compare it to the paraphrase.

yeah... Matt says that... ("Around 4:20 of his lecture he says somewhere along the lines of, "some people say that you want to be an atheist just so you can sin... screw that, its ok if you don't want to believe just to sin"")... and then explains what he means by that:

"Religions tell people to divorce themselves from who they are - who you are as human beings. 'You can't be gay'. Screw you, if I'm gay, I'm gay. If you wanna call it sinning and you don't think that's a good enough reasoning for me to stop believing in your god who you think made me [can't understand a bit here] this way and there's nothing I can do about it, or you wanna call it a choice or whatever, it doesn't matter. Hopefully, we come to better arguments and better reasons to justify our positions better later on.... " yadda yadda yadda